Canada's next Prime Minister?

[Tewder]

Tewder:

Indeed. Perhaps we should start by talking a) talking about the rationale behind the calling of this election and b) when the Conservatives decided to release their platform, vis-a-vis the electoral timetable?

AoD

Those are tactics too, fair or otherwise, and all parties partake. At the end of the day though I still think we should be bigger than this in discussing issues. I'm not saying the Conservatives are right or the Liberals as I'm not a partisan, but that one should try and cut through the BS rather than pandering to it. Painting the Conservatives as brownshirts or the Liberals as crooks doesn't help the political agenda in Canada. I've made up my mind for this election and no fumbling of English by Dion or boorish lack of diplomacy on the part of Harper will change it.

 

[Ahab]

At the end of the day I'm frustrated by the devolving of public and political discourse in this country where American style personality politics are usurping the issues.

Unfortunately, it only takes one party to start it. When attack ads started in the U.S., the only effective response were attack ads.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Tewder:

American styled character assassinations started 2 years ago - remember the Conservative ads? This election merely culminates it. And tactics is I think a legitimate area of electoral judgement since that's also a driver of how policy is derived (just think of how it relates to Quebec for example).

And yes, indeed, we should be talking about issues - however, it seems certain parties are particularly reluctant in bringing them up (just imagine the kind of leaders debate we'd have if the economic crisis wasn't dismissed so casually as a personal flaw). That to me is suggestive of the intent to make policies on the basis of appearance than substance.

AoD

 

[ShonTron]

This is how you decide your vote? How about looking at the issues instead of the desperate tactics of all parties to discredit the others? Novel idea.

That attack on me was uncalled for, though you are right. We should vote based on policies.

Anyway, I've decided already and voted in an advanced poll. I voted for an Afganistan pull-out, for shifting money from tax cuts for very profitable corporations to program and infrastructure funding, for action on consumer gouging, for environmental protections, for preservation of human rights, for arts funding, for sensible criminal sanctions (including ending the dumb “war on drugsâ€), for gun control, for cities, and for a party that does not prop up others when its values are in conflict.

 

[Tewder]

Please pardon the attack Shon Tron. I think the frustration arises from the fact that there are many Canadians who are genuinely unsure who to vote for and who don't give a toss about toeing political party lines, but who do care about what's good for the country. The mud-slinging does little but muddy those waters when it comes to making a choice. My partner is an American democrat and we've been suffering this for years now in the US. Just hate to see this happen in Canada, though I suppose it's inevitable...

 

[Tewder]

Unfortunately, it only takes one party to start it. When attack ads started in the U.S., the only effective response were attack ads.

Ahab, I do think the Obama/Biden campaign has managed to keep pretty clean relative to the Republicans who seem to want Americans to believe that Obama is a hidden islamic terrorist who will turn America into a socialist state. Hopefully there are many moderate Republicans who are not buying it.

And yes, indeed, we should be talking about issues - however, it seems certain parties are particularly reluctant in bringing them up (just imagine the kind of leaders debate we'd have if the economic crisis wasn't dismissed so casually as a personal flaw). That to me is suggestive of the intent to make policies on the basis of appearance than substance.

AoD, while I can't help but feel that both major Canadian parties are fairly equally guilty of the same sort of tactics, I do think that the Liberals are better at it.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Tewder:

This sort of tactic isn't new - it's just the way it is consistently applied as part of the general scheme that is. What bothers me is how the very discussion of policy is actively discouraged by the ruling party to such a degree by controlling the message. Say what you may of the Liberals - at least they went out with a platform without treating it as an afterthought and tried to raise the economy as an issue before it was "vogue" to do so.

AoD

 

[Tewder]

Dion did try a bit of a 'hail Mary' change to policy in the 11th hour when he began to understand that his green platform was falling on deaf ears as Canadians were watching the unravelling of the markets around us. This shows poor leadership to me, which would not bode well for the country in a failing economy. In my opinion what we need right now is safe, steady and conservative although I'm truly interested in revisiting his green platform in better times.

Harper's strategy was simply to keep his mouth shut and let the other parties hang themselves. Given the solid polls in his favour who could really blame him? All the more so when you consider how often he manages to put his foot in his mouth! Nevertheless, as the incumbent party we have the example of the past two years to judge his leadership by so the platform seems like a bit of a moot point, and indeed the platform that was released prooves to be essentially more of the same. Problems there to be sure but the economy should really be the main issue right now.

 

[Solaris]

Toronto Star - Tory support firming, poll suggests

Oct 10, 2008 10:55 AM
THE CANADIAN PRESS

OTTAWA – As leaders converge on the Toronto area on the eve of a holiday weekend, a new poll suggests Ontario has become the principal focus in the campaign's final days.

The latest Canadian Press Harris-Decima poll had Tory support firming at 34 per cent nationally, followed by the Liberals at 26 per cent, and NDP fortunes fading at 18 per cent.

The Green party had 12 per cent and the Bloc Quebecois nine per cent.

In Ontario, home to one-third of the seats in the House of Commons, the Liberals had 33 per cent, the Conservatives 31 per cent and the NDP at 21, with the Greens at 14.

The Tory-Liberal battle for second place in Quebec was also narrow: the Tories had 24 per cent to the Liberal 22, behind the BQ with a commanding lead at 40 per cent.

The latest sample represents 1,284 interviews conducted Monday through Thursday and is considered accurate to within plus or minus 2.7 percentage points, 19 times out of 20, although the margin is higher for regional results.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Tewder:

If Dion is 11th hour, what does that makes Harper? 10 minutes to midnight? We went from "Canada's fundamentals are strong and all those who think otherwise are panicking" to "we've known about the problem a year ago and we've built an ark" to "the economy is slowing down but we don't have to do much" to "a 25B package that really isn't a bailout" - all within what, 10 days. What does THAT speak of his leadership?

Harper's strategy was simply to keep his mouth shut and let the other parties hang themselves. Given the solid polls in his favour who could really blame him?

Actually we can - whether it is politically opportune or not, the job of the PM is to communicate to Canadians coming challenges. Harper as the leader has failed to do so.

Nevertheless, as the incumbent party we have the example of the past two years to judge his leadership by so the platform seems like a bit of a moot point, and indeed the platform that was released prooves to be essentially more of the same.

Leadership (as a fuzzy concept) is not the same thing as policy. If you want political discourse based on debates around policy, then you'd better be ready to back it up with a platform, not some ill-defined idea of what one may do or stand for.

AoD

 

[CDL.TO]

Harper tries to raise non-issues that the Liberals effectively spin into issues.

How do you "raise a non-issue"? By raising it, you are making it an issue.

"Hey everyone, come see this video! I'm not saying it's important or anything and it definitely shouldn't be construed as having an affect on Dion's viability as prime minister or anything. But you need to see this important video that is not an issue."

 

[Tewder]

How do you "raise a non-issue"? By raising it, you are making it an issue.."

In Marketing as in politics it's done all the time, to leverage your money or your vote. In terms of an election, however, not all issues are created equal despite the tactics used by politicians.

"Hey everyone, come see this video! I'm not saying it's important or anything and it definitely shouldn't be construed as having an affect on Dion's viability as prime minister or anything. But you need to see this important video that is not an issue."

The party tries to portray it as a substantive issue. It's up to you whether you buy it or not.

 

[Tewder]

If Dion is 11th hour, what does that makes Harper? 10 minutes to midnight?

...except that the Conservatives are in power. Surely it is fairly understood that their platform is what they've been doing, more or less. If they abuse that and introduce a mandate that is way out in left field (er' right field I guess) then they will lose the trust of the people, and rightfully so, and we will hold them accountable. They didn't do that though.

We went from "Canada's fundamentals are strong and all those who think otherwise are panicking" to "we've known about the problem a year ago and we've built an ark" to "the economy is slowing down but we don't have to do much" to "a 25B package that really isn't a bailout" - all within what, 10 days. What does THAT speak of his leadership?

Well honestly I don't see those things as mutually exclusive. Canada has been governed far more moderately by the Conservatives than the USA has been by the Republicans. Our instituations and our economy are more solid. That said, it would be ridiculous to think that the deregulated mess of the USA will not have any effect on the Canadian economy, no matter how much more stable we are, and this is exactly what we've seen materialize over the past few weeks and not just in Canada either. Harper has been responding to that responsibly, as he is the party in power, and has tailored a conservative economic platform in the face of recent unprecedented global economic challenges. Not bad in my opinion. I don't want to bash Dion's platform because I do respect the guy and I think it may have some merit. I just am not ready for it right now.

 

[afransen]

Tewder, it is worth noting that Canadians haven't been all that enthusiastic about Harper. If he wants Canadians to give him a mandate based on a wink and a smile, he's in trouble. See the hastily slapped together platform earlier this week. Canadians don't yet trust Harper, and his refusal to put out a plan nearly cost the CPC the election, and may yet cost him his leadership.

 

[Tewder]

Tewder, it is worth noting that Canadians haven't been all that enthusiastic about Harper. If he wants Canadians to give him a mandate based on a wink and a smile, he's in trouble. See the hastily slapped together platform earlier this week. Canadians don't yet trust Harper, and his refusal to put out a plan nearly cost the CPC the election, and may yet cost him his leadership.

Perhaps, but it is also true that many Canadians are not yet that enthusiastic or trusting of Dion and the Liberals either. What's more, so as not to skew the conservative drop throughout Canada, it must be understood that the real loss in conservative confidence has come from Quebec. Were it not for Harper's arts funding stupidity the Conservatives may still be enjoying a commanding lead.