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Canada's next Prime Minister?
- Thread starter Solaris
- Start date
Moonmoth
Active Member
This, people, is who we are being represented by:
"Kyoto is essentially a socialist scheme to suck money out of wealth-producing nations."
Stephen Harper, The Star, January 30, 2007
"I don't know all the facts on Iraq, but I think we should work closely with the Americans."
Stephen Harper, Report Newsmagazine, March 25 2002
"Same sex marriage is not a human right. ... ndermining the traditional definition of marriage is an assault on multiculturalism and the practices in those communities."
Stephen Harper, Hansard, February 16, 2005
"But I'm very libertarian in the sense that I believe in small government and, as a general rule, I don't believe in imposing values upon people.
Stephen Harper, National Post, March 6, 2004
"Human rights commissions, as they are evolving, are an attack o n our fundamental freedoms and the basic existence of a democratic society…It is in fact totalitarianism. I find this is very scary stuff."
Stephen Harper, BC Report Newsmagazine, January 11, 1999
"Those of different faiths and no faith should seek areas of common agreement based on their different perspectives."
Stephen Harper, Faith Today, January 11, 2006, "Faith and Politics: Party Leaders Respond"
"These proposals included cries for billions of new money for social assistance in the name of “child poverty†and for more business subsidies in the name of “cultural identity. In both cases I was sought out as a rare public figure to oppose such projects.â€
Stephen Harper, The Bulldog, National Citizens Coalition, February 1997
"Kyoto is essentially a socialist scheme to suck money out of wealth-producing nations."
Stephen Harper, The Star, January 30, 2007
"I don't know all the facts on Iraq, but I think we should work closely with the Americans."
Stephen Harper, Report Newsmagazine, March 25 2002
"Same sex marriage is not a human right. ... ndermining the traditional definition of marriage is an assault on multiculturalism and the practices in those communities."
Stephen Harper, Hansard, February 16, 2005
"But I'm very libertarian in the sense that I believe in small government and, as a general rule, I don't believe in imposing values upon people.
Stephen Harper, National Post, March 6, 2004
"Human rights commissions, as they are evolving, are an attack o n our fundamental freedoms and the basic existence of a democratic society…It is in fact totalitarianism. I find this is very scary stuff."
Stephen Harper, BC Report Newsmagazine, January 11, 1999
"Those of different faiths and no faith should seek areas of common agreement based on their different perspectives."
Stephen Harper, Faith Today, January 11, 2006, "Faith and Politics: Party Leaders Respond"
"These proposals included cries for billions of new money for social assistance in the name of “child poverty†and for more business subsidies in the name of “cultural identity. In both cases I was sought out as a rare public figure to oppose such projects.â€
Stephen Harper, The Bulldog, National Citizens Coalition, February 1997
Brandon716
Senior Member
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/511876
Tories slipping from majority
THE CANADIAN PRESS
OTTAWA–A new poll suggests the Conservatives are sliding further away from majority territory while the NDP are closing in on second in the wake of the two leaders debates.
The Canadian Press Harris-Decima rolling poll gives the Tories 35 per cent support as of Friday, slipping two points from the previous four-day average.
The New Democrats rose two points to 20 per cent and are closing in on the Liberals, who remain at 22 per cent.
The Green party is now supported by 13 per cent of respondents, while Bloc Quebecois were at nine points nationally.
Harris-Decima president Bruce Anderson says the new numbers are beginning to reflect the impact of two leaders debates held earlier in the week where pundits gave high marks to the NDP's Jack Layton and Green Leader Elizabeth May.
The rolling sample represents 1,247 interviews conducted Tuesday through Friday and is considered accurate to within plus or minus 2.8 percentage points, 19 times out of 20 – though the margin is much higher for regional samples.
Anderson said the poll shows that women in particular are drifting from the Liberal column for the NDP and the Greens.
More information on the poll is available from www.harrisdecima.com. Respondents to the poll were asked the following question: "If a federal election were to be held tomorrow, whom do you think you would be voting for in your area?"
Tories slipping from majority
THE CANADIAN PRESS
OTTAWA–A new poll suggests the Conservatives are sliding further away from majority territory while the NDP are closing in on second in the wake of the two leaders debates.
The Canadian Press Harris-Decima rolling poll gives the Tories 35 per cent support as of Friday, slipping two points from the previous four-day average.
The New Democrats rose two points to 20 per cent and are closing in on the Liberals, who remain at 22 per cent.
The Green party is now supported by 13 per cent of respondents, while Bloc Quebecois were at nine points nationally.
Harris-Decima president Bruce Anderson says the new numbers are beginning to reflect the impact of two leaders debates held earlier in the week where pundits gave high marks to the NDP's Jack Layton and Green Leader Elizabeth May.
The rolling sample represents 1,247 interviews conducted Tuesday through Friday and is considered accurate to within plus or minus 2.8 percentage points, 19 times out of 20 – though the margin is much higher for regional samples.
Anderson said the poll shows that women in particular are drifting from the Liberal column for the NDP and the Greens.
More information on the poll is available from www.harrisdecima.com. Respondents to the poll were asked the following question: "If a federal election were to be held tomorrow, whom do you think you would be voting for in your area?"
H
Hydrogen
Guest
It's quite easy to cherry-pick quotes from the various leaders from different political parties. It's clear that based on your biases you view Harper as extreme.
Just curious, but do you find these statements extreme:
If by small he means a more lean and efficient government, good for him. That should not automatically mean bad government. As for not imposing values upon other people, as a generality it sounds benign. Although the sentiment does clash with his views on same-sex marriage and other items like that.
And while I disagree with him on same-sex marriage being a right, he is not factually wrong when he pointed out that some members of different cultural and religious communities very much opposed same sex marriage.
I recall Ignatieff (Liberal) also suggested working with the Americans on such issues.
Just curious, but do you find these statements extreme:
If by small he means a more lean and efficient government, good for him. That should not automatically mean bad government. As for not imposing values upon other people, as a generality it sounds benign. Although the sentiment does clash with his views on same-sex marriage and other items like that.
And while I disagree with him on same-sex marriage being a right, he is not factually wrong when he pointed out that some members of different cultural and religious communities very much opposed same sex marriage.
I recall Ignatieff (Liberal) also suggested working with the Americans on such issues.
Brandon716
Senior Member
I'm pretty confident Harper won't garner a majority. His support just isn't there, and he's losing support in Quebec and that is the only province that can really give him a bigger win. Harper has maxed out his support in Ontario for the most part, save for a few seats in suburban Toronto that theoretically could switch, particularly Oakville.
The NDP rise is rather striking, if the NDP becomes more popular to the point of becoming official opposition, it will definitely be a devastating blow to Dion and he'll immediately need to resign.
The NDP rise is rather striking, if the NDP becomes more popular to the point of becoming official opposition, it will definitely be a devastating blow to Dion and he'll immediately need to resign.
Moonmoth
Active Member
Yes Harper is on the extreme-right, not centrist, FAR RIGHT.
Hydrogen: Harper's 'different faiths' quote is extremely offensive to people who don't have two white-bread parents! Who is HE to presume or dictate that people who are not of 'his' faith should be lumped together. He is elevating his particular brand of Christianity while audaciously & unabashedly commenting on how other people who don't share his beliefs should act!
As for libertarianism, well that is an absolute farce. It's fine, according to Harper, to despise government intervention when it come to rules & regulations, but it is SO arbitrary. Libertarians don't like government rules, but they DO like to drive on roads and bridges that aren't collapsing! What if the gov't decided to not fund fixing roads & bridges because it infringed too much on taxing people? Libertarians don't like taxes but they want basic safety, sorry but you can't have it both ways in this world. Either the gov't takes responsibility or it doesn't. Canada is a wealthy country! We have the ability to help each other, and so we should. They say that a society is judged on how they treat their weakest members. Stephen Harper fails miserably here.
Just because he is factually correct on anything (and by the debates, he was clearly selecting what pieces of information he would reveal on any given topic) does not mean he is a good leader for Canada nationally or on a global stage.
Ignatieff is no good either, he's basically a conservative to me.
Hydrogen: Harper's 'different faiths' quote is extremely offensive to people who don't have two white-bread parents! Who is HE to presume or dictate that people who are not of 'his' faith should be lumped together. He is elevating his particular brand of Christianity while audaciously & unabashedly commenting on how other people who don't share his beliefs should act!
As for libertarianism, well that is an absolute farce. It's fine, according to Harper, to despise government intervention when it come to rules & regulations, but it is SO arbitrary. Libertarians don't like government rules, but they DO like to drive on roads and bridges that aren't collapsing! What if the gov't decided to not fund fixing roads & bridges because it infringed too much on taxing people? Libertarians don't like taxes but they want basic safety, sorry but you can't have it both ways in this world. Either the gov't takes responsibility or it doesn't. Canada is a wealthy country! We have the ability to help each other, and so we should. They say that a society is judged on how they treat their weakest members. Stephen Harper fails miserably here.
Just because he is factually correct on anything (and by the debates, he was clearly selecting what pieces of information he would reveal on any given topic) does not mean he is a good leader for Canada nationally or on a global stage.
Ignatieff is no good either, he's basically a conservative to me.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Nobody should wish for this. It would be the gift of the century. The Liberals could well be destroyed by the rise of the NDP. When that happens we'll be left with the wonderful two party systems of many other countries. And since the NDP will keep espousing its hard left stance, we'll be consigned to Conservative rule for a long time. I like having a choice of parties, I am hoping the Liberals come back from this slide.....
kEiThZ
Superstar
That is entirely not my read of the quote:
"Those of different faiths and no faith should seek areas of common agreement based on their different perspectives."
I would think that should mean that people of all faiths and atheists and agnostics should be able to reach compromises even though they have diverse experience. I don't understand how you would interpret that to mean that he is attacking people who aren't christian with 'two white-bread' parents. In fact, as a person of colour, I find your statement to be an offensive attack on white Christians.
You obviously have very little understanding of libertarianism as a philosophy. We have many libertarians laws that occur on both sides of the political spectrum. Case in point: same sex marriage. That's based on the view that government should have no role in the bedrooms of the nation. What's more, the Conservatives are hardly Libertarians. These guys are:
http://www.libertarian.ca/
And we largely do. But capitalism creates winners and losers. Unless you prefer a communist system, that's how life will always be. And don't forget many of the programs that you would classify as 'helping people' are provincial responsibilities: health care, education, social welfare. The only federally administered social program is EI. And the Conservatives have not altered that program in any way.
Really? Point me to a policy decision which has resulted in more poverty in Canada. You can argue that he should have started new social programs. But to say that he has miserably failed the weakest members of Canadian society is rather harsh. What about all his predecessors? So when Chretien and Martin bundled health and social transfers together, slashed them and then gave the biggest tax cut in Canadian history, that was taking care of the weakest members of society? If you aren't going to provide context or examples, all you're doing is spouting rhetoric.
Find me a debate participant who does not cherry pick.....
Brandon716
Senior Member
If the NDP becomes official opposition all it proves is that Canada is becoming more left... I don't buy the idea that Canada is moving to the right in any way. The Conservative party has united all right factions that have any notable support and its still barely at 35%... Canada is one of the most socially progressive societies on the face of the planet, and Canada is the only major nation that covers significant land area to administer those rights over a vast region.
The Netherlands could be a large county within Ontario for all intents and purposes, no other nation on Earth has the vast land coverage with the kinds of advanced social visions of Canada.
Now, if only the purchase and sale of marijuana could be legalized for once and all it'd kind of match the Netherlands on that front.
The Netherlands could be a large county within Ontario for all intents and purposes, no other nation on Earth has the vast land coverage with the kinds of advanced social visions of Canada.
Now, if only the purchase and sale of marijuana could be legalized for once and all it'd kind of match the Netherlands on that front.
kEiThZ
Superstar
And the Netherlands still has more people than Ontario....what's your point? We are geographically large country with a tiny population. And much of that population lives with 200km of the US border.
Owing to that dispersal, I would hardly say that Canadians share a common social vision. You obviously have not traveled through Canada much. I have had the privilege of visiting 8 of 10 provinces. And I'd say while Canadians share certain key concerns (health care, environment, welfare), they differ greatly on the type and degree of government action required. For example, I would argue that in most of the Maritimes (with the exception of Halifax) there is plenty of support for social welfare programs, but there was not that much support for issues like same-sex marriage at the time of that debate. You'd have the reverse of that in Ontario. And Quebec is always an interesting case. They rail against privatization of health care yet allow the highest numbers of private clinics in the country. And no federal governments seems to have cojones to question them, although they usually take on Alberta on every single private clinic even though a majority of Albertans back these clinics.
You even have diversity on government regulation. The prairies get the Wheat Board forced on them, while Ontario farmers don't. But one would not dare to raise a cow and sell milk in Quebec, or raise chickens to sell eggs in Ontario without the licenses that cost thousands and thousands of dollars. Rest of the country? They like to have farmers compete.
In short.....we are both the same and diverse at the same time. We speak the same languages, dress the same, and all consume American culture, but our priorities vary from region to region, and so do the political attitudes that come with those changed priorities and challenges.
Given the vagaries of the electoral system, I don't think anyone would construe the NDP's attainment of status as the official opposition as a leftward shift. Particularly so, if the party they were opposing was on the right. The reason the NDP is doing well is because they have concentrated support in key ridings, whereas the Liberals are a true national party with a national support base. If the NDP attains status as opposition, it'll be more a fluke than a trend....I'll believe it if they start winning ridings all over the country instead of in their traditional pockets. Heck, even the Liberals had Iron Annie in Calgary for the longest time.
Nor is it moving to the left either. In typical Canadian fashion, we largely sit on the fence in the centre.
The old PC and Reform/Alliance party based their pitch to merge on the combined electoral numbers being higher than the Liberals. And look where it got them. The party that sticks to the centre wins in Canada. A Liberal-NDP combo that drifted to the left would probably drop to less than 35%. Either way, the Liberals can bounce back quite easily. Dion will get fired after this election. They'll probably finally get a non-quebecer to take the helm. And they'll ditch all this climate change, green window dressing and go back to what they are good at....running an economy, promoting health care, immigration, etc. Had they run on that platform, they probably would have taken this election.
Now I know you haven't travelled much..... Canada, the MOST socially progressive? Hardly....that honour would probably go to the folks from that other western continent.
Would be great....but it'll never happen as long as the US opposes it. We kinda value a free flowing border more than legal access to weed. We don't want every vehicle stopped on the border just because Americans coming up had access to ganja. It's bad enough in Windsor, they do that for college kids who come up from Detroit..... But hey, Canada is fairly permissive on this. The cops hardly prosecute anyone for possession. I have even read somewhere that more Canadians smoke pot than the Dutch. And I believe it. The way I see it, the situation is pretty good right now. The Canadian government gets to pretend it is cracking down on marijuana while the US government gets to pretend that we are serious about helping the with the 'war on drugs', and the trade keeps flowing. I'd rather not upset the balance.
Moonmoth
Active Member
KeithZ: You're not going to convince me that Harper is anything other than a neo-conservative demagogue, so even though you rebut my statements I will not be changing my views. Nor will I be voting for him or anyone from his party for the rest of my life.
Brandon716
Senior Member
Canada is one of the most socially progressive nations on Earth, not the top nation.
But for its size, its probably the largest in physical land area for laws to encourage personal freedoms like gay marriage.
Europe certainly has a lot of very nice areas. VERY nice. But the other half of Europe is pretty old and set in its ways. Poland is pretty anti-gay, pretty stoic. For every architectural wonderful city like Prague, there is a Bratislava.
For every nation that allows gay marriage like the Netherlands, there are nations still doing their best to ethnically cleanse their societies like whats happening in the former Yugoslavia still today to an extent.
But for the western hemisphere, Canada is the best legal setup available. The Netherlands aside, because that's in the eastern hemisphere.
Harper doesn't deserve to lead such a great nation, IMO. He's beneath Canada's great pride and national identity. He cheapens it.
But for its size, its probably the largest in physical land area for laws to encourage personal freedoms like gay marriage.
Europe certainly has a lot of very nice areas. VERY nice. But the other half of Europe is pretty old and set in its ways. Poland is pretty anti-gay, pretty stoic. For every architectural wonderful city like Prague, there is a Bratislava.
For every nation that allows gay marriage like the Netherlands, there are nations still doing their best to ethnically cleanse their societies like whats happening in the former Yugoslavia still today to an extent.
But for the western hemisphere, Canada is the best legal setup available. The Netherlands aside, because that's in the eastern hemisphere.
Harper doesn't deserve to lead such a great nation, IMO. He's beneath Canada's great pride and national identity. He cheapens it.
kEiThZ
Superstar
That's fine, I am not out here to convince anyone on how to vote. It's an internet forum, we are simply here to debate and get what we each want out of the experience. But do try and watch your language. Nobody here minds a passionate argument, but foul language is uncalled for.
adma
Superstar
Well, to vindicate your sentiment, the Conservative candidate for Hamilton East-Stoney Creek is a dead ringer for Rudolf Hess...
http://www.votefrank.ca/
kEiThZ
Superstar
Certainly an odd line of reasoning to consider the land mass across which freedoms are applied...when those are largely meant for people. You should be careful with that argument, lest Putin's Russia become the penultimate model.
Sure there are many European socialist policies that I would love to see implemented in Canada. But there also many that I think would be disastrous, many of their labour policies for example. Would I love more than the standard two weeks in Canada? Yes. Do I think it's good for society to get the standard 5-7 weeks that my godparents and godsisters in Austria get? Hell no. They can never seem to link the high unemployment they have on the continent with their highly socialist labour policies. The reality is that the best policies probably lie somewhere in between.
Sadly in Canada, our parties have such polarized positions. For example, while the left wing parties in Europe support NATO's war in Afghanistan out of a concern for human rights, women's rights and welfare, stability of central asia, etc. the NDP and the Greens here simplistically label it Bush's war and say they want out. Or while right wing parties in Europe, protect their national champions, we have a Conservative party that lacks the pragmatism to help ours compete.
Those PR supporters might have quibble with that point.... And it'd be news to many that Netherlands is in the eastern hemisphere of political discourse.
I am harsh on the Liberals this time, simply because I think they need a time out. I am sick of constantly being governed by a Quebec focused and Quebec led party. I'd like them for once, to acknowledge the fact that their heartland is Ontario both with a leader and with their policies. When they do that, they'll have my vote....I disagree with many of the Conservative policies and bemoan the fact that they've drifted more to the right than the old PC party. Sadly, the Liberals just failed to earn the vote this time around of guys like me, and by the looks of it, I am in plenty of company.