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Canada's next Prime Minister?

Who would win in the Federal Elections?


  • Total voters
    68
  • Poll closed .
The rolling sample represents 1,254 interviews conducted Monday through Thursday and is considered accurate to within plus or minus 2.8 percentage points, 19 times out of 20 – though the margin is much higher for regional samples.

Leadership debates took place Wed and Thur night......the rolling poll was conducted Mon through Thru......it's all about timing.
Monday was prior to the debate.
Thurs the debate ended late here in Ontario and Quebec ...... when are these polls conducted during the day?

"though the margin is much higher for regional samples", nice disclaimer and a good one for propaganda mongers.

The results of the Oct 14th election will not only reflect the current cultural war in Canada, it's going to either make or break these poll pushers as they have played a significant role in Canadian politics this time around.....they are quoted as being correct 19 out of 20 times.....lol It cracks me up at this point.
I watched the debates, both of them and I like the new format. When I read that all 4 leaders were attacking the Prime Minister I wondered if all those opining authorities have ever focused on the second best option when they wanted the best option to be realized? I thought each leader went after all their rivals well but not all where able to connect with the Canadian voters who are going to decide who will lead us forward in this stupid economy......the average citizen is starting to realize that they are not alone as the stupid ones but are in fact really the consumers who buy into what they are told to, openly or not.

The far right doesn't understand the environment issue that is becoming a global concern or how this "green shift" is a unique opportunity to move forward innovatively.

The far left does not understand the economic pragmatics required to keep both the elite and the suffering poor connected is a significant way, where improvement in the lives of the poor will become a "moving on up" experience for both, instead of the constant reminder about their disadvantage point from the extremes.

Jack Layton asks my question the way I wanted it to be asked frankly, the under the sweater comment is a keeper. So many keeper statements both nights in both English and French but in the end we learn "fraud is fraud" in both French and English. Very interesting but not funny!
 
Yeah, it is skewed that the media is putting so much emphasis on polls that were barely influenced by the debates at all (M-Th) when the french debate was on Wed night and the english debate was Thurs night.

It's almost as if they are trying to falsely influence public perception of the results... The media wouldn't do that. We can trust them right? *sarcasm*
 
Another rolling poll (Nanos), suggests that the race may have tightened considerably after the french debate.

Tories were down two points from 37 to 35, Liberals up four points from 26 to 30, NDP down one to 18. 95% Margin of error is 4%.

More interestingly, the 'leadership index' numbers, which creates a score based on Canadian's perceptions of leaders, showed a huge swing, and one that was statistically significant.

Harper 79 (-16)
Dion 71 (+40)
Layton 48 (-12)

Tomorrow we can see what impact the english debate will have had.

I just think that it is interesting that once Canadians have gotten to know 'the other guy' from more than a freeze-frame shrug and a few awkwardly delivered soundbites (and for Quebeckers, that Clarity Act bastard), their perception improved significantly.


Did anyone else watch the debate? I thought both were great, and that the round table format made for more interesting discussion. I believe it was Andrew Coyne who thought that it would be great to have these kinds of debates between party leaders even outside the election campaign. I have to say I agree with him.
 
Another rolling poll (Nanos), suggests that the race may have tightened considerably after the french debate.

Tories were down two points from 37 to 35, Liberals up four points from 26 to 30, NDP down one to 18. 95% Margin of error is 4%.

Yeah, I would have expected much more of a bounce for the Liberals. I had always thought that the race would tighten after the debate. It's unfortuante for Dion that the debate came so late in the race. I guess it's another minority ahead.....which I kinda like.....
 
As far as the Liberal party goes, it has a new leader, it has a new vision, it has a fresh face.

This ridiculous claim needs to be put to bed. I think Tewder can put it in terms you understand:

Dion indignantly accuses the Conservatives of not achieving in barely a two-year minority mandate that which the Liberals refused to achieve themselves in about a thousand years of majority rule. How rich! He claims to be a 'new' liberals in the same way that McCain claims to be a 'maverick' Republican. Anybody buying? Sounds like snake oil to me:rolleyes:

Brandon,

That's exactly why many of us don't mind giving somebody else a kick at the can. It's not that we 'hate' the Liberals like you assert. Heck, probably by the next election many of us will be sick of the current administration and back the Libs again. I have my gripes against the Conservatives right now....handling of Omar Khadr, arts funding, stupid equalization promises, etc. But all in all, I'd hardly think they have been as disastrous as you are out to paint them. And I suspect most of the Canadian public feels the same way. I have no doubt the Liberals will come back better and stronger after a short stint on the opposition benches. They might even learn to pick a leader from outside Quebec again!
 
I'm not sure Dion had much actual power as environment minister, and certainly not the power to implement meaningful strategies to limit CO2 emissions. The blame for that lies squarely with Chretien, who I will admit played very cynical politics on many issues.

Andrew Coyne has an excellent piece in Maclean's magazine about Harper's environmental plan:

Green? Who, me?

Harper has a green plan too, though he'd rather not talk very much about it right now

ANDREW COYNE | October 1, 2008 |

Toward the end of last year, the Prime Minister embarked on his usual round of exclusive interviews. The news was not good. He told the Globe and Mail exclusively that Canadians should brace themselves for the impact of pending federal regulations on greenhouse gas emissions, warning that "mandatory reductions impose costs. Those costs are real in the short term. There is no way to avoid them. None." He told the Toronto Star exclusively that the implementation of the regulations in the new year would bring home "the reality that you cannot reduce greenhouse gas — you cannot mandate it — without there being some economic cost in the short term." Similarly bleak advisories were issued in exclusive interviews with the CBC ("very real costs"), and the Canwest News Service ("there is no way to do this without imposing costs on our economy in the short term").

Well, now it's October, in the middle of an election campaign, and Stephen Harper no longer wants to talk about the costs of his environmental plan. Indeed, he never even mentions his plan. Rather, he wants to talk about the other guy's plan: the Green Shift that Stéphane Dion has made the centrepiece of his platform. Or, as Harper prefers to call it, the carbon tax, ignoring the offsetting cuts in personal and corporate income taxes in the Liberal plan. At every stop along the campaign trail, he assails the plan as a "risky scheme," a "permanent tax on everything" that would plunge the Canadian economy into a recession. At the very least, he suggests, we cannot take the chance, in a time of "global economic uncertainty."

The message appears to have hit home. The Liberals have been steadily losing altitude throughout the campaign, and while Dion's personal unpopularity is undoubtedly a factor, the Green Shift/carbon tax has by all accounts been a major contributor. More significantly — and remarkably — no one has thought to ask the Prime Minister about the costs, and the risks, of his own plan. It has become a cliché of political commentary that "no one understands" the Liberal plan. But is anyone even aware of the Conservative plan?

It wasn't that way in 2007, when the Conservatives released, to much fanfare, "Turning the Corner" — a "regulatory framework" for industrial greenhouse gas emissions, updated in a "final" regulatory framework last spring. Then, the Conservatives were anxious that everyone should know about their deep commitment to the fight against global warming, previous efforts having failed to impress this adequately on the public mind. The plan would require a select group of heavy industries — electricity, oil and gas, mining, metals, pulp and paper, and the like — to reduce their emissions "intensity," that is emissions per unit of output, by 18 per cent within two years, with further reductions of two per cent annually required after that. The goal: an absolute reduction of 20 per cent in Canada's emissions by 2020, 65 per cent by 2050.

The plan has many parts, but at its heart is the notion of tradeable emissions credits. Or in shorthand, cap-and-trade: firms that reduced emissions by more than they were required would earn credits on the surplus, which they could sell to other firms on the open market. Firms that found it too expensive to meet their targets could make up the shortfall out of these credits. Or they could buy them overseas, through the Kyoto Protocol's Clean Development Mechanism. Or they could pay "contributions" into a green technology fund, starting at $15 for every tonne of carbon dioxide (or its equivalents) they were over their limit: a carbon tax, by another name.

But whatever the "compliance mechanism" industry adopts, have no doubt: you will pay. As the document puts it, "a portion of the costs associated with these investments and changes in operations will be passed on… in the form of higher prices" — just as the PM had warned. "Canadians can therefore expect to bear costs under the regulatory framework that are not trivial." An accompanying press release notes this could mean "noticeable price increases for consumer products such as vehicles, natural gas, electricity, and household appliances," adding "there will be a period of adjustment for all Canadians."

How noticeable? How much adjustment? No one seems to know. To be fair, there's no way anyone could. The final final regulations haven't been released yet, let alone implemented. But even if they were, it is in the very nature of cap-and-trade that the costs are indeterminate. The price of the credits will be set by the market, in the usual way — by the intersection of supply and demand. A carbon tax is the reverse. The price of carbon is known in advance: $10 a tonne to start, rising to $40 by year four. How much emissions will fall as a result can only be guessed at — a point the Conservatives are quick to make.

But if the question is which plan is economically "riskier" — in the sense of uncertainty about its cost — the answer is clear: the Conservatives'. We know how much the Liberal plan will cost. We've no idea what the price of the Conservative plan will be. Well, we can guess: the government forecasts the market price of emissions credits in 2010 at about $25 a tonne, rising to $65 a tonne by 2018 — not far off the cost of the Liberal carbon tax.

That's not entirely coincidental. Remember that supply-and-demand graph from Economics 101? You can fix the price, as the Liberals propose, and let supply and demand adjust. Or you can fix the supply, as in the Conservative plan, and let the price rise. It amounts to the same thing. So you would expect them to cost about the same, for the same amount of reductions. The only way the Conservative plan could cost less than the Liberal plan is if it reduced emissions less. As indeed is the plan: while the Liberals also target 20 per cent reductions in emissions by 2020, that's from 1990 levels, the original Kyoto reference point. The Tory reductions are measured against 2006 levels — 22 per cent higher than the 1990 benchmark.

Moreover, there is virtually no chance of meeting even the more relaxed Tory timetable. The government itself concedes that, of the required 150 megatonnes (Mt) of reductions in emissions, just 60 Mt would come from the industries participating in the cap-and-trade scheme: not surprisingly, since they account for only a little over half of Canada's emissions. The rest would be made up out of a grab bag of regulatory and subsidy schemes of a kind that have been tried — and have failed — before. Simulations by Simon Fraser University's Mark Jaccard, considered Canada's leading expert on the economics of climate change, suggest current government policy would result in reductions of about 120 Mt by 2020 from projected levels, i.e. from the levels to which they would otherwise have risen. But in absolute terms, emissions "are unlikely to fall below current levels," meaning we're on track to overshoot our target by something like 200 Mt.

In sum, the Conservative plan is just as costly (per tonne of emissions reduced) as the Liberals', twice as complicated (emissions trading markets are, as Europe has learned, fiendishly difficult to design: just the task of ensuring credits are based on "real, incremental, verifiable" reductions would take several pages to explain), and probably half as effective. (Not that there's anything wrong with cap-and-trade. But to get anywhere near our targets, we're probably going to need both a carbon tax and cap-and-trade, as indeed the Liberals propose.) The Tory plan has, however, proved unassailably superior in political terms. The very thing that makes the Liberal plan less risky economically — the costs are known up front — makes it more risky politically. The Conservatives have succeeded in implying, without quite saying, that the choice is between a costly scheme and no costs at all. They've hit the political sweet spot: enough of a plan to say they have a plan, but not so much as to get in anyone's face.

The Liberals have achieved the exact opposite (the sour spot?): a plan that is not radical enough to be the game-changer they had hoped, but costly enough to annoy just about everybody. True, Dion's failings as a salesman haven't helped. And yes, their timing could have been better, pitching a plan to raise fuel taxes just as oil and gas prices were setting all-time records — to say nothing of the turmoil now convulsing the world financial system. But the plan's design was flawed from the start. The Liberals never have told us how a federal carbon tax would apply in provinces that already have one, while flirting, foolishly, with imposing tariffs on countries that have none. Most disastrously, they did not cut income tax rates by anything near enough to make a difference, economically or politically — certainly not enough to support claims of revenue neutrality. The tax cuts, such as they were, have long since been forgotten.

It should be mentioned that the Conservatives have had helpers: the New Democrats, whose environmental policy is a similar mix of cap-and-trade and subsidies, and who, like the Tories, have successfully demonized the carbon tax, while pretending their own plan will cost no one but a handful of "big polluters." As Laval University economist Stephen Gordon has written, it is an alliance between those with "a visceral hatred of taxes" and those with a "visceral hatred of corporations."

But it is the Conservatives who have been the demagogues-in-chief in this affair. Among the long-term costs will be Conservative credibility. The same Conservatives who have told us for years that prices, in a market economy, are to be preferred to regulation as a means of changing economic behaviour, suddenly forget their economics when it comes to pricing carbon. The same Conservatives who have long insisted that tax rates are critical to incentives seemingly cannot comprehend the logic of shifting taxes from income to carbon. And the same Conservatives who have long lectured us that "corporations don't pay taxes, people do" — that any costs imposed on business will inevitably be passed on, usually to consumers — would rather we forgot they ever mentioned it.
 
I'm not sure Dion had much actual power as environment minister, and certainly not the power to implement meaningful strategies to limit CO2 emissions. The blame for that lies squarely with Chretien, who I will admit played very cynical politics on many issues.

Andrew Coyne has an excellent piece in Maclean's magazine about Harper's environmental plan:

A professor of a course I recently took was a Kyoto negotiator for Ontario. He has great stories about how Ontario agreed only to a 2% cut. Apparently that was the provincial consensus. It caught everyone off-guard when Chretien upped it to 6% just to be better than the yanks, including the negotiators like my prof. But with Chretien's majority nobody wanted to go to war with the feds over an obligation that was close to a decade away from being met. While I agree that Dion did have much power, what I find galling is the shrill rhetoric from the Liberals on the issue. Expecting Harper to undo a decade of Liberal indifference on the issue is particularly offensive. I would consider them sincere if they admitted that their record on combatting climate changed sucked and that regardless of what anybody does, Canada won't meet its Kyoto obligations. Otherwise, it simply looks like a stick they use to beat the Conservatives with. And with rhetoric like this, it seriously leaves me wondering who has the hidden agenda.....
 
Far from a stick, Dion had the courage (or the stupidity?) to propose a plan that would actually work, even though it is more honest with Canadians about the costs (read Coyne's piece for more about that).

I think the criticism of the Tory plans are altogether fair. I don't know if we can blame him for rising emissions, but we can blame him for still not releasing his plan a year after it was first announced. During Chretien's time, there was no political appetite for real movement on climate change. Since, well, I'd say 'An Inconvenient Truth', there has been an increase in political appetite for Canadians to accept some burden in order to address the perceived problem. Despite this, Harper has proposed a rather cynical plan. No one really knows what it will entail, how much it will cost, how will it work, what kind of bureaucracy (waste) will be necessary.
 
Far from a stick, Dion had the courage (or the stupidity?) to propose a plan that would actually work, even though it is more honest with Canadians about the costs (read Coyne's piece for more about that).

I strongly agree on that. As I have said before, I do appreciate what Dion is trying to do, thought I might disagree on the timing or the impact.

I think the criticism of the Tory plans are altogether fair.

Agreed. More than fair.... I am surprised the Liberals keep hammering away at Harper's record on this instead of hammering away at his lack of (or rather vagueness of) his plans.

During Chretien's time, there was no political appetite for real movement on climate change.

Because the challenge of the time was the deficit (infamous third world honorary designation), the unity of the country, etc.

Since, well, I'd say 'An Inconvenient Truth', there has been an increase in political appetite for Canadians to accept some burden in order to address the perceived problem.

I would argue that the environment is off the table for at least as long as it takes for the US to recover, and probably for longer than that. It's hard to pitch a confouding (to the average joe) carbon tax with a recession on the horizon. Look at the debate, it was all about the economy, even though we still have very low unemployment, stable banks and credit markets, federal and provincial governments in surplus, etc. In my mind, the only way to pull off what Dion wants to do is to impose it after getting elected. That sounds cynical. But I am extremely skeptical that the environment is an issue that would get anyone voted in here in Canada.
 
I thought Elizabeth May did fantastically well in the english debate. If Duceppe & his party weren't separatists, he could be PM material. Jack Layton showed very well in the english debate and so did Dion. Everyone made good valid points, taking into the historical precedents and current political climate.

I was hoping for a massive change in the polls the next day - a GREEN SWEEP! But Canadians are just too chicken-shit for that aren't we. Okay, so my plan B is that in the event of a conservative minority, the Libs, NDP & Green band together to form a coalition government to keep Harper out of power. It's that dire people. Harper cannot and should not be representing Canada nationally or internationally. He's nothing but a pale neo-conservative Bush-ite taking aim at becoming a dogmatic demagogue.

The points that May & Layton we remaking last night were key, in that Harper opposes things (such as arts-cuts, or introducing national childcare or pharmacare) because of his right-wing ideology, which is SIMPLY TERRFIYING in a leader. As Dion said "We don't need this kind of politician in power, please do not vote for him".
 
Another rolling poll (Nanos), suggests that the race may have tightened considerably after the french debate.

Tories were down two points from 37 to 35, Liberals up four points from 26 to 30, NDP down one to 18. 95% Margin of error is 4%.

More interestingly, the 'leadership index' numbers, which creates a score based on Canadian's perceptions of leaders, showed a huge swing, and one that was statistically significant.

Harper 79 (-16)
Dion 71 (+40)
Layton 48 (-12)

And the figures for Quebec...

Oct 1: BQ 42, Con 24, Lib 17, NDP 12, GP 5
Oct 2: BQ 39, Lib 24, Con 20, NDP 11, GP 7

Quite the turnaround.
 
adma, the margin of error tends to be pretty high for regional breakdowns, so we'll have to see if that swing in Quebec was a fluke or whether it will be sustained over the coming days. Good news is that the change in leadership perception was so large that it is basically certainly a big improvement.
 
The problem is that most NDPers, especially Jack Layton, despise the Liberals far too much to ever join with them in a coalition.

That is a true shame for Canada. If I was directly involved I'd be scheming away to keep Harper out, having backroom discussions with the other parties to plan a coalition take-over, despite their differences, Harper & his party are a MENACE for Canada and must be stopped at all costs.
 
And the figures for Quebec...

Oct 1: BQ 42, Con 24, Lib 17, NDP 12, GP 5
Oct 2: BQ 39, Lib 24, Con 20, NDP 11, GP 7

Quite the turnaround.

Well these #'s make me a bit happier. WHY Quebec (which is arguably more socialist than other provinces) would even consider the conservatives over the Bloc, or the liberals, just baffles me! Yeah, everyone gets pissed at a party once in awhile but - prepare yourselves - the conservatives will dismantle this country systematically if they reach power. I am ashamed to be Canadian with this FUCK: Stephen-REFORM PARTY-Harper as PM. I can't understand who votes for this fat bloated GWB ass-kissing neo-con troglodite.

When Mike Harris was elected in Ontario, I left Ontario in protest. I really hope I do not have to leave Canada if Harper gets elected.
 

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