salsa
Senior Member
Prosecutors have dropped all charges against officers in Freddie Gray case. No convictions.
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Black Lives Matter Toronto
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Riverdale Rink Rat
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And the context here is that Bill O'Reilly is an idiot? C'mon.
JWBF
Senior Member
Did you or tiffer24 watch Bill’s reply?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-28/bill-o'reilly-defends-controversial-slavery-comment/7667580
Bill is a professional propagandist who goads media and pundits, and specializes in playing the victim to promote himself (at least in airtime) and anti-liberals/anti-progressives. Bill will state a fact, let or lead people to context and play the victim, just like I did except for the victim part but I’m sure you see my point.
Which also leads to these points...
First of all, to be inclusive, BLM has “included” all repressed peoples and I would assume global slaves through the ages. We mused of how “indentured servants” is another nome of “unpaid interns”; American slave trade? I don’t get that reference.
Second, “Diseased Coyote” as a racist term, which admittedly I am not aware of, is a stretch, especially when the intent was to make fun of the inclusiveness of the BLM name, but I could be wrong.
Lastly, “‘real’ Canadian”? I never used that term or its context; this is another example of an out of context and adding your own. If it makes people feel better if I expound this point... I called the race derived labels, IMO, an example of base racism since they promote divisions based along race lines. Some may find it a stretch but I don’t see any real difference between ghettos, etc, and such labels.
Riverdale Rink Rat
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I don't watch Fox News -- I don't have cable, and it's American news. That having been said, slaves were fed enough to stay alive and able to work. They were not 'well fed' by any stretch of the imagination.
From your link:
"But historian Liam Hogan later took to Twitter, seeking to debunk O'Reilly's defence. "Let me demonstrate how *absurd* this O'Reilly narrative is by using specific language to describe both the negative and the 'positive'," he said on Twitter. "Slaves were beaten, tortured and raped with impunity. Their children were sold for money. Slaves were well-watered.""
I will not continue to engage with you. If you want to play games of sophistry about slavery and BLM, have at it, but you clearly have issues with this subject and it's not worth the time or effort.
I will concede this, though: you were correct that, much like Beyonce, BLMTo did perform one-fisted Black Power salutes and I had not seen that. So, point for you.
JWBF
Senior Member
My link is quite informative especially if you watched Bill in action, and your response more so, especially since you completely missed my point. Pity.
The fallacious comments award goes to you, congratulations.
The Black Power salute is well documented, and it’s use by BLM/BLMTo has been in The Toronto Star. Incidentally I also posted the pic in UT’s Rob Ford’s Toronto thread which lead to this thread being created with the comment to me from BLMJ.
Cheers.
Armour
Senior Member
The majority of Americans killed by the police are white. The greatest threat to black men is other black men killing their own; which happens everyday in Chicago. Where is your outrage over that?
What advantage do white people have over blacks (you make it seem like all white people are well off)? What is stopping black people from achieving success and living in nice houses in the suburbs? If you actually believe that there is some faceless, shadowy figure/road block, etc. that prevents black people from attaining the things you claim white people possess, then how the heck are you ever going to succeed in that type of environment? You never will. Blacks have the same opportunities as anyone. They have no one but themselves to blame for their own short comings/failures. Hard work pays off for anyone, irrespective of their race. Start looking within yourselves instead of searching for social injustices that don't exist. You have a brain like anyone else. Use it to figure out things for yourself instead of blaming white people for every misfortune you have. The notion that you need to take money from white people to look after yourselves implies that you're not intelligent/responsible enough to make it on your own. Wouldn't it be more inspiring if blacks were taught the truth; that they're just as capable as anyone and that they are the masters of their own destiny? You want a nice house? Go out and get it. If you think you're perpetually tied down to the bottom of the social ladder, then you will remain there. Do you think every wealthy white person is just handed a golden key and never has to get their hands dirty? The notion that whites have an innate advantage over blacks is complete bruin brownies. Explain to me how whites have the upper hand in Baltimore, for instance, with a black mayor, largely black police force, black attorney general, black president?
Why should the wealthy have their money taken from them and given to others who did nothing to earn it? That is your idea of fairness? If one wants nice things in life, then that should be incentive to be responsible for oneself and to be all the more determined to work hard and fail until one finally succeeds. One can't help the situation they are born into, but they can better their position. If you're born poor and die poor (save perhaps mental/physical health issues), you have no one to blame but yourself. If blacks want the good life, then emulate what the whites are doing that have it. Learn from them. Not every white person inherits wealth. Some of us actually have to work for it.
White privilege doesn't exist. It's a fabricated, b.s. term. Talk to all the homeless white men in downtown Toronto about their privilege. What opportunities do white children born into destitute, single parent household's have "thrown" at them exactly? An old friend of my brother's (a white guy) was born addicted to cocaine because his mother used it while she was pregnant with him. Could you touch on his great, inherent fortune? Life must be a walk in the park for him.
One's skin colour has nothing to do with their successes or failures. The problem with many black people is their culture. Too many black kids grow up without fathers and have virtually no positive black, male role models/authority figures to inspire them or teach them the value of discipline. With this absence of father figures, they tend to look up to black athletes and hip hop artists and even join gangs for a sense of belonging. The issue isn't merely one of absent fathers, however, as people from all walks of life are faced with similar situations and don't turn to lives of crime. I think a lot of black people think the only way for them to "make it" is to be successful in the entertainment industry or the world of sports. Perhaps many of them don't realize that they can also be doctors, lawyers, writers, scientists, etc. You don't see many black people portrayed as such in the media/films, etc., so, perhaps, it seems like those jobs are reserved for everyone else but them?
There's a really simple antidote to the problems that blacks face. Stop having so many children out of wedlock. No one is forcing single black women to have 5 children without the means to support them. Have committed relationships and decent employment/living conditions before bringing children into this world. Stick together; raise your children with respect and love for their fellow men and women; instill in them a strong work ethic and reassure them when they fail that they will eventually meet their goals if they stay persistent. Almost invariably, if one is brought up in a loving, stable home, with both parents present, they will have lives that will bear great fruit. Unfortunately, the black family unit started to dissolve around the time of the free love/civil rights movement. Sexual responsibility went out the window and things have never been quite the same since. It's the stupid hippie mentality that has led to so many women getting knocked up and abandoned by deadbeats; black or otherwise. This was almost unheard of before the late 60s and was greatly frowned upon. Now we just shrug our soldiers, as we've become desensitized.
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expat
Active Member
My main problem is with the insistence that there be no police float at the parades. I see it as a free speech/assembly issue: some people are saying that some other people should not have the right to be in a specific place based solely on their membership in a group.
We do have some laws around this - kids can't go into bars, you can't chat with your friends in the middle of a busy intersection - but mostly I'm wary of attempts to limit freedoms. In the case of BLM, the argument is that the police shouldn't be allowed in pride because the police are de facto offensive to BLM due to a history of discrimination against the black community.
Using this sort of subjective criteria to censure people, in my opinion, is dangerous: first because it's completely subjective, and second because it gives far too much power to some people to control the rights of others. By BLM's logic, the Toronto Irish Association should bar any English people from participating in the St.Patrick's Day parade: the Irish were discriminated against, disenfranchised, occupied, and - depending on how you read the great famine - the victims of genocide at the hands of the English. Who decides, ultimately, whose right not to be offended takes trumps?
I generally think the solution is more freedom, not less. The Police should be allowed to have a float in the parade, and BLM should be allowed to have a float right behind them that says "We Don't Like the Police." That's the ideal of a liberal society, not progressively shutting down speech until you arrive at a place where nobody is offended.
We do have some laws around this - kids can't go into bars, you can't chat with your friends in the middle of a busy intersection - but mostly I'm wary of attempts to limit freedoms. In the case of BLM, the argument is that the police shouldn't be allowed in pride because the police are de facto offensive to BLM due to a history of discrimination against the black community.
Using this sort of subjective criteria to censure people, in my opinion, is dangerous: first because it's completely subjective, and second because it gives far too much power to some people to control the rights of others. By BLM's logic, the Toronto Irish Association should bar any English people from participating in the St.Patrick's Day parade: the Irish were discriminated against, disenfranchised, occupied, and - depending on how you read the great famine - the victims of genocide at the hands of the English. Who decides, ultimately, whose right not to be offended takes trumps?
I generally think the solution is more freedom, not less. The Police should be allowed to have a float in the parade, and BLM should be allowed to have a float right behind them that says "We Don't Like the Police." That's the ideal of a liberal society, not progressively shutting down speech until you arrive at a place where nobody is offended.
TheKingEast
Senior Member
Wow. Why did I come back in here? I've been on this board for years and this by far takes the cake as the most ignorant post I've read here. You should really educate yourself.
riffraff
Active Member
Yesterday was a very interesting day with respect to police brutality and "justice".
States Attorney Marilyn Moseby in Baltimore, in announcing the withdrawal of charges against the three remaining cases in the Freddie Gray death were relevant. She took aim at the Justice System in general and in the Gray case in particular. She noted that it starts with the police internally investigating the police which is why she instituted an independent investigation, and in the power of the police to withhold evidence and collude in their notes and their testimony at and before trial.
In Toronto, Justice Then in his sentencing comments in the Yatim death also noted that (in spite of the studies, inquiries, and recommendations for policing for decades now) officers still disregard policy and training on the interpretation and use of excessive force.
And where's the concern for white on white crime? Why are whites always pointing the finger away from this "problem"? As for the "majority of Americans killed by police are white" comment, I've seen/heard reports that about 70% of the police killers are white but because of the lack of recorded data I haven't found any one source that has systematically tracked this data.
And, in the Yatim case, I'm not sure that Sammy's "race", as defined by White "old stock" Canada, wasn't an issue, at least for Forcillo. The "Race as a Social Construct" theory was brought home for me when my light-skinned son as a child asked me "How white do you have to be to be white?"
I think, acknowledging that we are very influenced by American trends as are our cops who participate in US police training and other conferences and organizations, race relations are but one issue (and an important one) in discussions of policing rather than this "Two Solitudes" Us vs Them racial blather.
States Attorney Marilyn Moseby in Baltimore, in announcing the withdrawal of charges against the three remaining cases in the Freddie Gray death were relevant. She took aim at the Justice System in general and in the Gray case in particular. She noted that it starts with the police internally investigating the police which is why she instituted an independent investigation, and in the power of the police to withhold evidence and collude in their notes and their testimony at and before trial.
In Toronto, Justice Then in his sentencing comments in the Yatim death also noted that (in spite of the studies, inquiries, and recommendations for policing for decades now) officers still disregard policy and training on the interpretation and use of excessive force.
And where's the concern for white on white crime? Why are whites always pointing the finger away from this "problem"? As for the "majority of Americans killed by police are white" comment, I've seen/heard reports that about 70% of the police killers are white but because of the lack of recorded data I haven't found any one source that has systematically tracked this data.
And, in the Yatim case, I'm not sure that Sammy's "race", as defined by White "old stock" Canada, wasn't an issue, at least for Forcillo. The "Race as a Social Construct" theory was brought home for me when my light-skinned son as a child asked me "How white do you have to be to be white?"
I think, acknowledging that we are very influenced by American trends as are our cops who participate in US police training and other conferences and organizations, race relations are but one issue (and an important one) in discussions of policing rather than this "Two Solitudes" Us vs Them racial blather.
JWBF
Senior Member
Although it would violate a persons' rights as they are, appeal should not be granted, IMO there should always be a higher standard for those who betray public trust.
Statistics are way too misused, IMO that's the problem.
That's quite sobering.
I wholeheartedly agree.
Armour
Senior Member
This income inequality that BlackLivesMatterJeff is talking about has nothing to do with race and everything to do with culture.
Explain to me why black kids aren't graduating high school. Explain to me why blacks are shooting each other in rates significantly higher than whites are shooting each other. Explain to me why 13% of the population is responsible for 50% of the murder. Explain to me why the number of black kids in prison, not for innocent reasons, not for walking down a street and getting pulled into a prison, is so high. If it has nothing to do with culture, explain to me why the single motherhood rate in the black community jumped from 20% to 70% in the same course of time that the civil rights movement has made such tremendous strides. Is America is more racist now than in 1960, and if it is, please explain to me how that happened?
P.S. How did Ben Carson come from a single parent home (with a mother who had only a 3rd grade education) and go on to become a world renowned neurosurgeon? He is proof that anyone can achieve their dreams. If he can come from such dire circumstances and be successful, then why can't any other black person? How did Condoleezza Rice overcome the odds and become the United States Secretary of State? She also grew up in the segregated south during the early 60s and faced racism and hatred that no one born in the following generations can even comprehend. Blacks weren't even equal citizens then. I don't buy the argument that all blacks are overlooked for employment based on the colour of their skin. If one has an education, presents themselves well and can speak articulately and with conviction, they will be acknowledged.
Explain to me why black kids aren't graduating high school. Explain to me why blacks are shooting each other in rates significantly higher than whites are shooting each other. Explain to me why 13% of the population is responsible for 50% of the murder. Explain to me why the number of black kids in prison, not for innocent reasons, not for walking down a street and getting pulled into a prison, is so high. If it has nothing to do with culture, explain to me why the single motherhood rate in the black community jumped from 20% to 70% in the same course of time that the civil rights movement has made such tremendous strides. Is America is more racist now than in 1960, and if it is, please explain to me how that happened?
P.S. How did Ben Carson come from a single parent home (with a mother who had only a 3rd grade education) and go on to become a world renowned neurosurgeon? He is proof that anyone can achieve their dreams. If he can come from such dire circumstances and be successful, then why can't any other black person? How did Condoleezza Rice overcome the odds and become the United States Secretary of State? She also grew up in the segregated south during the early 60s and faced racism and hatred that no one born in the following generations can even comprehend. Blacks weren't even equal citizens then. I don't buy the argument that all blacks are overlooked for employment based on the colour of their skin. If one has an education, presents themselves well and can speak articulately and with conviction, they will be acknowledged.
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greenleaf
Senior Member
White privilege.
Armour
Senior Member
Something which doesn't exist. Good answer. So it is white privilege that is leading to black men killing each other and not getting an education and being born out of wedlock? Is it also white privilege that is affecting down and out white people? You've always got to blame someone else for your troubles, right? There's no such thing as personal responsibility.
being born out of wedlock? Did we just revert to 1916?
JWBF
Senior Member
That's fine and dandy but don't forget community responsibility, without proper supports, IE. education; regressive support makes things harder for communities.
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