Afternoon shooting in Toronto's Little Italy leaves one person dead

[TrickyRicky]

What was it I said in another thread? Oh yeah, you can't change people. I know it's hard to accept.

All we can do is strive to build strong communities. The trouble with crime is not that it is on average dangerous to the population (even in the worst neighbourhoods in the world people who are involved in crime are the minority) it's that it psychologically undermines the desire and ability of people to strengthen the community. There is some kind of psychological inflection or tipping point where crime causes people to become apathetic or even worse to abandon their communities.

Thankfully the psychological impact of this crime is so low relative to the strength of the community that there will be virtually no long-term impact. I wish all of our communities in the city were so lucky.

We can focus all day on who is at fault or who are the bad guys or who should we fear but ultimately the real concern is this psychological balance of accounts between strengthening and weakening in a community.

 

[Marko]

What was it I said in another thread? Oh yeah, you can't change people. I know it's hard to accept.

All we can do is strive to build strong communities. The trouble with crime is not that it is on average dangerous to the population (even in the worst neighbourhoods in the world people who are involved in crime are the minority) it's that it psychologically undermines the desire and ability of people to strengthen the community. There is some kind of psychological inflection or tipping point where crime causes people to become apathetic or even worse to abandon their communities.

Thankfully the psychological impact of this crime is so low relative to the strength of the community that there will be virtually no long-term impact. I wish all of our communities in the city were so lucky.

We can focus all day on who is at fault or who are the bad guys or who should we fear but ultimately the real concern is this psychological balance of accounts between strengthening and weakening in a community.

Extremely good post and it looks at something within the discussion that is unrecognizable to some - that balance within a community that needs to be shifted. What you first have to do is identify the community - if there is one. Then you have to figure out the differences between those who have all the same influencing factors (background, poverty, single mom, whatever that is) and find out what those who do not go on to lives of crime did differently. Their path is what has to be repeated and it can only be learned from within, not by sitting in our condos or offices and using doublespeak to avoid any awkward conversation.

Say two neighbor kids the same age grow up with no father, 2 siblings, a mom who works and collects welfare and live in the same housing complex (just ONE example to study - I'm NOT painting all with the same brush)... why does one kid graduate school and become a successful parent, while the other drops out, gets into drugs or gangs and repeats the cycle. Only when you can understand this, can you begin to make changes and prevent crime, rather than simply react to it and throw the offenders in jail - where they belong at that point - not under house arrest.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I think that's a conversation that we can all agree on that should happen.

AoD

 

[TheKingEast]

Vox/Kingeast are contrasting the reactions to these two recent shootings and judging it racism that some believe the Little Italy shooting to be a one-off (cause a white dude did it) yet believe the Eaton Centre shooting to be symptomatic of a problem with certain black men (cause a black dude did it). It's a worthwhile question to raise, just not in the obnoxious and unconstructive way it was done.

So of all the obnoxious, unconstructive things in this thread you point out 2 individuals who pointed out the contrast in the outrage centered around both incidents?

There's something constructive about saying all murderers are of Jamaican and Somalian decent?

There's something constructive about making baseless claims about an entire group of people?

There's something constructive about saying certain races are more violent than others?

There's something constructive about condoning the lack of outrage around this story because...like..you know...blacks do most of the killing in this city?

And I'm the obnoxious one. Keep up with the shaming tactics though. That's how these conversations go.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

So of all the obnoxious, unconstructive things in this thread you point out 2 individuals who pointed out the contrast in the outrage centered around both incidents?

There's something constructive about saying all murderers are of Jamaican and Somalian decent?

There's something constructive about making baseless claims about an entire group of people?

There's something constructive about saying certain races are more violent than others?

There's something constructive about condoning the lack of outrage around this story because...like..you know...blacks do most of the killing in this city?

And I'm the obnoxious one. Keep up with the shaming tactics though. That's how these conversations go.

I went back to the Eaton Centre shooting thread. While yes the thread is 9 pages long vs 4 for this thread, it also occurred weeks before. It took until the 9'th post for someone (theArchitect) to make any comment related to "scumbag" and that never made any reference to race, simply those who commit crimes with guns out in the open where innocent civilians can be hurt. On this tread it was the second or third comment with made references to "mafia" and followed by the comment that there was not as much outrage here (little italy) as there was there (Eaton Centre).

So I guess my question was, show me where in the Eaton Centre shooting showed racist comments? Furthermore, please explain why it was necessary to make, as you said yourself, baseless claims about a group of people. Since many a poster initially stated that the shooting happened in little italy therefore it is mafia related, only to learn later that it was related to biker gangs.

I apologize if I sound overly defensive but I simply do not recall the amount of racial stereotyping that you claim to have happened in the Eaton Centre shooting, both in the media and here.

 

[Tewder]

Clearly Kingeast is so blinded by an agenda that he cannot even read for content. How many different ways can anybody state this is not about 'race'?? Unfortunately, that's all he sees is colour. So sad for the vicitms of these crimes, not to mention the many wasted lives that will fall into crime, that people like Kingeast continue to stymie an important conversation with such prejudiced views.

Fortunately AoD, Marko, Woodbridge, TrickyRicky and myself have all agreed this isn't about 'blacks' as Kingeast and Vox put it, and that this is a worthy conversation to have if looking for real and effective ways of dealing with these issues.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Tewder:

We agree that it isn't about race doesn't mean the perception out there (and among some posters on UT) isn't framed by race. Acknowledging that reality doesn't have to stand in the way of a frank and rational discussion of what can be done - which will also inevitably come to addressing that issue as well.

AoD

 

[Marko]

Tewder:

We agree that it isn't about race doesn't mean the perception out there (and among some posters on UT) isn't framed by race. Acknowledging that reality doesn't have to stand in the way of a frank and rational discussion of what can be done - which will also inevitably come to addressing that issue as well.

AoD

Racism would be saying that they are criminals because they are black. We all know this is not true.

What we do know, however, is that for a number of complicated reasons, more of our violent criminals in the GTA happen to also be from specific cultures that also happen to be black. Why? Once we can accept that discussing it openly is necessary, only then can we begin to understand the reasons 'why' and work to undo them.

Stifling this discussion as KingEast seems wont to do, will only ensure the pattern continues.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Racism would be saying that they are criminals because they are black

Well, look at it through another lens - if you are a person from cultures that can be considered as black, would you necessarily appreciate being branded as a potential criminal (and don't deny it - we all know that happens far more often than we'd like to admit) by mere skin colour or cultural affiliation? Would you be inclined to "discussing it openly" in that environment? Would you be inclined to work with authorities who are, intentionally and unintentionally, categorizing you and making premature judgements? Is that not racism? A frank discussion requires that we look into that aspect of reality as well - and how that reality conspires with other factors to create the situation we're in today.

AoD

 

[Tewder]

Tewder:

We agree that it isn't about race doesn't mean the perception out there (and among some posters on UT) isn't framed by race. Acknowledging that reality doesn't have to stand in the way of a frank and rational discussion of what can be done - which will also inevitably come to addressing that issue as well.

AoD

I think we can tell when somebody is trolling against 'blacks' here and they should be addressed appropriately. Clearly that's not been the tone of this conversation, however, despite the agenda of some.

Marko's right about the so-called race issue, in the same way we can talk about an issue with the mob among the Italian community without it being a reflection on all Italians, or a reflection on all white people, both of which would be beyond ludicrous, obviously.

 

[Marko]

Well, look at it through another lens - if you are a person from cultures that can be considered as black, would you necessarily appreciate being branded as a potential criminal (and don't deny it - we all know that happens far more often than we'd like to admit) by mere skin colour or cultural affiliation? Would you be inclined to "discussing it openly" in that environment? Would you be inclined to work with authorities who are, intentionally and unintentionally, categorizing you and making premature judgements? Is that not racism? A frank discussion requires that we look into that aspect of reality as well - and how that reality conspires with other factors to create the situation we're in today.

AoD

It is unfortunately a delicate discussion where discussing matters of race is necessary, but that does not make it racist in the derogatory, inflammatory sense. I know people from various African or Caribbean communities who hate the fact that they are perceived differently because of the acts of the few, but they know that changing these perceptions won't happen as long as the actions of those few keep occurring.

Many Italians dislike being branded as mafiosos (or wannabes) because of the actions of the few and they have to continually work to change those perceptions - it doesn't happen by pretending those perceptions are wrong, because they're not - they came from somewhere. They work with police rather than build a culture to denigrate them.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Many Italians dislike being branded as mafiosos (or wannabes) because of the actions of the few and they have to continually work to change those perceptions - it doesn't happen by pretending those perceptions are wrong, because they're not - they came from somewhere. They work with police rather than build a culture to denigrate them.

Sure, but are Italians stopped say more often by the police, or being "carded" at the same rate as the general population? I mean, these are the also the realities.

AoD

 

[Marko]

Sure, but are Italians stopped say more often by the police, or being "carded" at the same rate as the general population? I mean, these are the also the realities.

AoD

If the crime rates among Italians were that high, and you could actually identify an Italian more easily - then maybe - and it would be a wise thing for police to do.

We do know that DWB exists, but what we don't know is whether it also yields a higher rate of charges and infractions among those stopped. They're not allowed to tell us. It sucks that innocents are included just based on appearance, but if it's a tactic that actually yields results, then I can't say I blame the police for doing it.

It's like the whole profiling of potential terrorism suspects. I feel bad for those who may look similar or have a name that raises eyebrows, but if you're looking for terrorists, it's a waste of time and resources to strip search WASP grandmothers. You know where the results will be more likely to come from and that's where you have to focus your attention.

Profiling in and of itself is not wrong, but there are good and bad ways to do it.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Sure, but are Italians stopped say more often by the police, or being "carded" at the same rate as the general population? I mean, these are the also the realities.

AoD

Why yes. In the 50's 60's and even 70's I believe police were given a directive by higher ups to walk along College st and clear out all "gangs" of people who were congregating around the street. Under the assumption that they were doing mafioso activities. This regardless if it were a group of young men gambling, or old men sitting having a coffee and socializing.

Yes it doesn't happen anymore but you can't say it 'never' happened. And still, doesn't make it right...

 

[Tewder]

Sure, but are Italians stopped say more often by the police, or being "carded" at the same rate as the general population? I mean, these are the also the realities.

AoD

I don't know that policing is supposed to be 'blind' though, is it? Police operations are guided by statistics and likelihoods and assessing situations for risk and so on, no? For instance, we all know that young guys of any colour get pulled over when driving far more often than the general pulbic, which is profiling pure and simple.

It's a fine line with these things for sure. In the end it is the law and the administration of law that must be impartial but things are certainly more grey when it comes to policing... the issue then becomes what is 'reasonable' in certain contexts and that things never cross a line in terms of harrassment etc... but these are the very things can get abused unfortunately and must be checked vigilently.