407 Rail Freight Bypass/The Missing Link

[nfitz]

The other biggie is that the bypass gets us to a place where something short of federal intervention could put electrification of Milton and beyond Bramalea on the table.

Getting CN freight off the Kitchener line does nothing to help Milton.

But technically speaking if CP trains were allowed to run along the Halton/ York subdivision it would make for shorter trips.

I think you underestimate the antipathy and lack of co-operation between CP and CN. CP, unlike VIA, is not going to put it's operations at the whims of CN.

 

[Bojaxs]

I think you underestimate the antipathy and lack of co-operation between CP and CN.

No I don't. I work for CN. I'm fully aware of the "antipathy".
What you quoted was a hypothetical scenario that'll never happen. Read my earlier posts and you'll see I don't anticipate CP gaining access to the missing link.

As I've posted earlier in this thread, a separate freight bypass would have to be constructed for CPKC. I've proposed the 413 bypass.

Similar to how the 407 freight bypass would open up the Kitchener line for GO trains, the 413 bypass would open up the Milton line for GO trains. Although CP trains would still run along the Midtown corridor.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Getting CN freight off the Kitchener line does nothing to help Milton.

Frankly I think it’s safe to assume this DOES have some plan for CPKC between the prior GO announcements this government has made centering on Milton and the level of frequency Kitchener can get without a bypass. As much as those of us in a forum like this mostly understand how important the difference between the bypass and some flyovers is for Kitchener line service, electorally theres not much point to this if it doesn’t do something for Milton. As a CN only project this is little more than promises of further improvements to the Kitchener line even farther down the road than Metrolinx has already positioned 2WAD… and at a time when cynicism is already pretty high about 2WAD.

The other possibility would seem to be that whatever plan this government had for full Kitchener line service without a bypass has truly fallen apart… in which case I rather suspect they’d be keeping their mouths shut given how long anything like this would take as a fix, and just how hostile the mood has gotten about delayed transit promises.

I’d actually be less surprised to hear that he’s really talking about a CPKC ONLY bypass akin to @Bojaxs 413 concept than that Ford is talking up a CN project.

 

[nfitz]

Read my earlier tweets and you'll see I don't anticipate CP gaining access to the missing link.

You think I should be reading Twitter to follow a discussion here?!?

As I've posted earlier in this thread, a separate freight bypass would have to be constructed for CPKC. I've proposed the 413 bypass.

I really don't see CP running that much freight through Weston. Also, I've heard no mention that freight on the Milton line is an obstacle to 2-way all-day service, as there's plenty of space for dedicated tracks for GO.

Frankly I think it’s safe to assume this DOES have some plan for CPKC between the prior GO announcements this government has made centering on Milton ...

Indeed. More tracks alongside the current tracks.

The other possibility would seem to be that whatever plan this government had for full Kitchener line service without a bypass has truly fallen apart

I think there's a greater likelihood that the premier's office is completely ignorant of the flyover plan.

 

[Bojaxs]

You think I should be reading Twitter to follow a discussion here?!?

Lol! I typed "tweet" instead of "post". My mistake.

 

[Bojaxs]

Also, I've heard no mention that freight on the Milton line is an obstacle to 2-way all-day service, as there's plenty of space for dedicated tracks for GO

You're probably correct, but tell that to CPKC who see GO trains as an obstacle. The issue was never track capacity. It was CPKC themselves that is the issue.

 

[nfitz]

You're probably correct, but tell that to CPKC who see GO trains as an obstacle. The issue was never track capacity. It was CPKC themselves that is the issue.

There's no way that you can run 2-way all-day 15-minute Milton service on the current tracks, along with freight. At least not west of Kipling.

 

[crs1026]

I mean "trip length/ time" isn't an important factor for freight rail as much as it is with passenger rail. But technically speaking if CP trains were allowed to run along the Halton/ York subdivision it would make for shorter trips. Instead of the current mainline setup where CP trains have to go all the way down to the Junction in Etobicoke and then go up the Mactier subdivision to Vaughan. This would be especially true for CP trains running between Chicago-Montreal which have to make a stop in Toronto.

Don't be so sure.

A bypass from CPKC Milton West to CN Halwest along the 407 corridor would be about 29.5 kms (18.4 miles). Then it's 11.1 miles alongside CN to Snider, 25.0 miles to Pickering Jct, and 11.8 miles to rejoin CPKC at Oshawa East where the lines come together. That's 66.3 miles, where today via CPKC it's 27.4 + 5.9 + 31.1 = 64.4 miles. CP will not be happy to add two miles of track with added long term fuel and maintenance costs. CN will not be happy about the appropriation of an asset that they own as private property. Both will fight bitterly against the idea that government holds the control on their assets.

Where this gets silly in my view is the premise that this will lead to CPKC yielding the whole line across North Toronto and GO immediately building a cross town line. There is first the reality that CPKC needs to get from Vaughan to Oshawa to head eastwards, and a tight curve to the bypass at Woodbridge may not be doable. Then there is the reality that even if CP had the ability to cease using the Mactier and North Toronto and Belleville Subs through the city, and repurpose its Agincourt Yard, the market value of that asset as developable real estate is well beyond what Ontario can afford to buy for a transit line. So, no.... I don't believe that this is laying the ground work for a North Toronto GO line. That idea may have been studied, but IMHO it's not affordable and won't be needed for decades, if ever.

To my mind, the compelling rationale would be to place CP in a bypass so that the Milton- West Toronto line (and only that line) can be converted to 2WAD without adding trackage(especially over bridges) or having to buy adjoining land to achieve a 4-track right of way that achieves 2WAD as well as preserving CPKC's needed freight capacity and potential growth. Maybe that cost comparison is compelling, maybe it isn't. ML probably already knows, and as I said Ford is simply pasting a new cover on what has already been studied to death. And debated to death here.

The encouraging part is that his otherwise highway-friendly government is actually focussed on the needs and issues for regional transit. That's very encouraging. But I'm not reserving a calendar spot for a bypass groundbreaking.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

You are misunderstanding. They want to buy only the portion of the York sub that the Kitchener line already uses and divert freight onto a new line that follows highway 407.

The end goal would be to also get CP on board. This is basically another attempt at The Missing Link.

The document literally says Missing Link.

But I see no value of the Milton to Bramalea connection for CP.

 

[Bojaxs]

There's no way that you can run 2-way all-day 15-minute Milton service on the current tracks, along with freight. At least not west of Kipling.

I really don't see CP running that much freight through Weston. Also, I've heard no mention that freight on the Milton line is an obstacle to 2-way all-day service, as there's plenty of space for dedicated tracks for GO.

Now you're confusing me.

 

[nfitz]

Now you're confusing me.

GO doesn't run on the CP tracks through Weston. It's entirely freight now. If you divert the CP tracks (presumably along the 407 from Milton) and then up the 413 to MacTier, you still have to come down Mactier, through Weston, to The Junction to change to the North Toronto sub to get to the Belleville sub.

 

[Bojaxs]

GTA track map with both 407 freight bypass & 413 freight bypass.

413 CPKC Freight bypass

 

[crs1026]

GTA track map with both 407 freight bypass & 413 freight bypass.


413 CPKC Freight bypass

Oh fergawshsakes.... I hope those are your creations and not an official proposal ????

The idea of adding a transit corridor to the 413 to make it more palatable sounds like.... a Ford tunnel idea. Or a ferris wheel.

Putting a freight line there, and asking CP to add those miles of roundabout (and feet of vertical elevation) when it currently has a through route.... not gonna happen.

But so very Ford.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

GTA track map with both 407 freight bypass & 413 freight bypass.

Now you are confusing me. You literally show the CP mainline going through Weston. Not only for the east-west traffic but now for all the traffic to the north.

And I see no point of this CP diversion - as you still have CP sharing with GO from Milton to the 407.

 

[Bojaxs]

And I see no point of this CP diversion - as you still have CP sharing with GO from Milton to the 407.

I mean it doesn't have to be exactly as I've drawn it. East of Campbellvile, build a rail bridge going over the 401 and run CP's mainline north of Milton along side Campbellville Rd/ 5 side Rd. and then turn North to go up between Georgetown and Brampton?