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401 "Highway of Heroes" and DVP to be "Route of Heroes"

the only problem i have with the war in afghanistan is that canada is cleaning up someones else's mess. our troops are doing an important mission but the burden seems to be too much on their backs. judging by the americans involvement in this area in the '80's, they broke it, they should fix it, at least to a higher degree. it would be nice if the americans could give our military some better equipment as a token of thanks for our services or at least stop screwing us over with our northern claims.

By the 1980's, do you mean after the massive invasion by the Soviet Union - which was roundly condemned?

If we think our military deserves better equipment, we should be buying it. Regardless of one's political stripes, the American's have offered a very considerable degree of military aid to Canada over many decades.

As for the north, I assume you mean the Northwest Passage. Many nations claim the right to pass through it, not just the Americans. As for the north pole, Russia is claiming it (presently). The Danish are in hot pursuit - and they also maintain claims for what we consider Canadian territory.
 

By the 1980's, do you mean after the massive invasion by the Soviet Union - which was roundly condemned?

that's right. afganistan was a playground for soviet VS. american conflict. the USSR is equally responsible for this mess also.


If we think our military deserves better equipment, we should be buying it. Regardless of one's political stripes, the American's have offered a very considerable degree of military aid to Canada over many decades.

what kind of aid? why are we buying second hand subs that catch fire? :confused:


As for the north, I assume you mean the Northwest Passage. Many nations claim the right to pass through it, not just the Americans. As for the north pole, Russia is claiming it (presently). The Danish are in hot pursuit - and they also maintain claims for what we consider Canadian territory.


i know there are lots of claims but you'd think they (US) would take our side. i guess they're getting us back for iraq.
 
The Danish are in hot pursuit - and they also maintain claims for what we consider Canadian territory.


danish? don't you mean "roses of the prophet"? ;)
 
Lone Primate, what will the West gain in terms of energy production in Afghanistan? Is there anything at all to acquire in terms of material or markets from this country?

This is a fair question, and one that needed to be asked. The principal answer that comes to mind is the Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline deal signed in late 2002 with the government we conveniently created there to serve our interests. It constitutes the only practical means to transport the energy commodities of the Turkmenistan to the sea lanes of the Indian Ocean (via Pakistan), given that Iran is highly unlikely to facilitate it. I don't purport it to have been the sine qua non of the invasion, however, it does become a supporting player in the insistence of foreign armies to maintain their place there ever since, and in at least some eyes, it probably made the initial idea of invading Afghanistan a more attractive, lucrative prospect.


would it have been better off to leave the Afghan people in the hands of the Taliban? Because if I recall correctly, there were a fair number of people on the left demanding some sort of action against the Taliban in that country due to their inhuman treatment of women and utter intolerance with dissent.

With regard to the second point, if only it were as easy as the left pointing to an injustice and having it remedied, or even acknowledged. It rarely happens; history is a long, broad tapestry of utter inertia at nearly every opportunity to alleviate human suffering, at least when it occurs in the furtherance of benefit to one party or another. Our own times are full of examples of places where vast human suffering has taken place with nothing more than a shrug from the countries now trumpeting their humanitarian virtue in Afghanistan. Your question also presumes, not necessarily correctly, that demands from "the left" (and incidentally, do those on the right have no consciences?) for redress of these issues are perforce demands for military action; there are other avenues, and ones that have been used with success in our own times. On this score, and also on your first question as to the relative wellbeing of Afghanis before and after the invasion, I mean to have more to say subsequently.
 
As for the north, I assume you mean the Northwest Passage. Many nations claim the right to pass through it, not just the Americans.

i know there are lots of claims but you'd think they (US) would take our side. i guess they're getting us back for iraq.

There's been some suggestion that one of the reasons the US refuses to acknowledge the Northwest Passage as Canadian territorial waters is that would imply tacit acknowledgment of Indonesia's claim to similar straits between the islands making that country up. The US considers those straits strategic to its interests and is loathe to acknowledge any claim over them that might prejudice them.

The view is short-sighted. In refusing to back Canada's claim, they're effectively telling everyone in the world this long, nearly unpopulated strait is open to one and all. Is this really in the interests of the territorial integrity and security of North America?
 
If your raison d'etre for our being in Afghanistan is that we are an ally of the United States, why, then, are we excused from the "farce" of Iraq? Certainly the alliance was Britain's reason for joining it... I don't believe you can have it both ways.

Actually, when last I checked Canada was a sovereign nation, which means we *can* have it both ways, or any way(s) that we see fit. Canada, along with many other nations, agreed with the removal of the Taliban, but not with the invasion of Iraq. Why can't you understand that? If you see them as the same, then in fact you are guilty of buying into George Bush's propoganda.


If you're prepared to pat us on the back for not joining in the bloodying of Iraq, I'm prepared to condemn our involvement in the savaging of Afghanistan for the same reason. Either we are obliged by our alliance and failed in 2003, or we are an independent nation that chose foolishly in 2001; it's one or the other.

It's "one or the other"? That's a little dogmatic, isn't it? Thankfully our statespeople and diplomats don't apply the same blinkered and biased reasoning to our foreign affaires as you. The fact is, the only common demonminator between Afghanistan and Iraq is the USA, which if you'd like to be truly honest about your perspective is what you really have a problem with, isn't it? So the nuance and detail of reasoning, as must be applied in these complex issues, are lost on you, as somebody who is clearly so stridently anti-West, anti-white and anti-American.

It's nice to blame Afghanistan and say they had it coming, but this assumes they knew where Osama bin Laden was, which was a prerequisite for extraditing him in the first place. We didn't even give them six days; we've been there six years. ...Where is he?

First of all, Canada did not support the attack of 'Afghanistan'. Again, this is highly simplistic. Rather, Canada agreed to the removal of the Taliban who had taken control of Afghanistan, which would have been completely fine - as far as Canadian foreign policy is concerned - but for the fact that the Taliban gave safe harbour to the perpetrators of 911 (rememer that? Twin towers destroyed? 3,ooo dead?).

You are also reducing the issue of removing the Taliban from Afghanistan to the hunt for Osama Bin Laden, which is also simplistic. The Taliban harboured not just the leader, but the Al Qaida organization and its training camps, the very coalition responsible for the attack on the United States on Septemer 11th; a group that also promised a fatwa with more attacks to come, by the way, in case you choose to overlook that too.


First of all, Afghanistan didn't attack the United States. Neither did Iraq.

You're right, 'Afghanistan' did not attack the United States. The Taliban leadership of Afghanistan protected the group that did. If Washington was safeguarding a group in the States that liked to lob bombs at Toronto we'd be pretty steamed too.

If Osama bin Laden was in Afghanistan, the US refused to present that evidence when Afghanistan requested it; this is, in fact, a requirement of international law: an obligation on Afghanistan and the United States both... with the US refused to honour.

Despite your efforts to revise history and distort the Afghanistan/Iraq issue timeline, the international community - at the time of the 911 attack/reprisal against Taliban - was behind the US on this one, sorry. Even moderate countries in the middle east with differing allegeances and perspectives acknowledged that the Taliban/Al Qaida alliance was behind this attack, and that reprisal was warranted.

Had it been another country, such as one in Western Europe, or at least one sufficiently armed to dissuade the United States from attacking, that evidence would have been tendered. So the attack on Afghanistan was nothing but a cynical demonstration that white countries and countries with nukes have sovereignty; none other need apply

Did the US tender evidence to Japan when it bombed Pearl Harbour? Or was that simply the 'white man' picking on asians for sport?

What you are basically claiming is that the US is a bully, and a white racist one at that. That's your right, of course, but at least be honest that this is how you think, and that you are going to be against the US no matter what the cirumstances.

Secondly, Canada isn't the kind of country that would invite an attack like the one that occurred on September 11th... at least, it wasn't till recently.

Oh yay, the radical fundamentalist islamic terrorists like us, they really like us!!!! ....which, by the way, they don't. They don't appreciate Canada's tolerance, Canada's secularity, Canada's rights for women, minorities and gays, etc., Canada's expression of individual rights... What they do appreciate is Canada's lapse immigration policies, the Canadian openess and freedoms that they hide behind, and our proximity to the US which makes us a convenient base for future attacks.

By the way, I'm not claiming that the US, under its current administration, has been a paragon of enlightenment on these issues either. On the contrary, I am sincerely alarmed by what I see happening south of the border. The difference between you and I, however, is that at heart I don't hate the US like you do, and do not assume 'a priori' that the US is fundamentally a vile, corrupt and racist place. At heart, I believe the opposite, despite the dark years of Bush. Sad for you though, if that is what you think.[/QUOTE]
 
With regard to the second point, if only it were as easy as the left pointing to an injustice and having it remedied, or even acknowledged. It rarely happens; history is a long, broad tapestry of utter inertia at nearly every opportunity to alleviate human suffering, at least when it occurs in the furtherance of benefit to one party or another. Our own times are full of examples of places where vast human suffering has taken place with nothing more than a shrug from the countries now trumpeting their humanitarian virtue in Afghanistan. Your question also presumes, not necessarily correctly, that demands from "the left" (and incidentally, do those on the right have no consciences?) for redress of these issues are perforce demands for military action; there are other avenues, and ones that have been used with success in our own times. On this score, and also on your first question as to the relative wellbeing of Afghanis before and after the invasion, I mean to have more to say subsequently.

Rarely does anyone act on the basis of all of history. Choices for action are selected. Also, there are limits on where and when one chooses to act, and it is easy to condemn on the basis of these limitations - too easy.
 
On the question of wellbeing, before and after invasion

Johns Hopkins University estimated, in October of 2006, that approximately 650,000 "excess" deaths had occurred in Iraq since the invasion in March, 2003. What they mean by this is that 650,000 more people have died since then than would ordinarily have been expected to according to the death rate prior to the invasion. That means under Saddam. These numbers are due to direct military action and the crime that has sprung up in the wake of the invasion and the devastation of the infrastructure of life. Both of those are ramifications of the invasion.

A lot of people dispute this number, but even the conservative estimates now numbers "collateral damages" into almost six figures; the IBC's lowball figure is just shy of 70,000. As if that were consolation. 70,000 unnecessary deaths is an astounding figure, an unconscionable punishment to inflict upon a nation that never attacked the US, the UK, or any of the other countries currently occupying it. Let's suppose for a moment the IBC to be correct, rather than JHU, dropping the number of deaths by an order of magnitude. What would the effects of 70,000 civilian deaths be upon this country? How would Canadians react if someone, and a very identifiable someone at that, arrived here and undertook that kind of carnage? How would we as a people about someone who effectively murdered every human being in Peterborough… or Lethbridge… or Newmarket… or Sarnia, or Port George, Chilliwack, Saint John, or Drummondville?

But what if JHU is right, or even approximately right? Suppose someone came here and destroyed Calgary, or Edmonton, or Winnipeg, or Mississauga? Or London and Halifax, or Richmond and Oakville and Regina and Victoria and Monckton? Would we think ourselves better off for their having been here? Would we nod sagely and smile if someone suggested we should be grateful?

Now some will no doubt insist that the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan are in no way "conflated", as I think it's been phrased. Putting the question of connectivity aside, let's focus instead of the equivalency of effect. If Iraq has suffered no less than 70,000 needless deaths since 2003, are we to believe that Afghanistan has not suffered something very much like that given that its tribulations have predate those of Iraq by a year and a half? In March of 2002, about half a year after the invasion of Afghanistan, the University of New Hampshire released a study demonstrating an estimated 3000-3400 excess deaths in Afghanistan as a result of aerial bombing by the United States alone. That figure took no other cause of death into account. That's from just one cause, in just the first six months of the invasion, and yet that figure alone represents the number of deaths in 9/11… an event we think of as singular, monstrous, and providing us with carte blanche to do pretty much whatever we want to whomever we deem necessary in the world (one is forced to wonder at this point just what actions the quantities of deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan to date might be fairly considered to justify). And aside from the scope of the deaths, an extremely important factor separating those from before the invasion from those after is the number of children involved. People executed for crimes of apostasy prior to the invasion were adults. Civilian causalities as a result of Allied activities in Afghanistan include children and adults in numbers essentially proportional to their incidence in the general population. It's hard to credit that this could in any regard be considered an improvement in the lot or condition of the Afghan people, no matter how philosophical or abstract a view of the situation one might take.

Obviously, given the nature of the war, whether one chooses to or not to include deaths occurring indirectly as a result of the destruction of homes, supplies, hospitals, sanitation facilities, and so on, the figures will be different. But it strains credulity to imagine that that the Taliban were executing people, one at a time, on a scale approaching the death and suffering that occurs when entire villages are attacked, and death is completely indiscriminate. To expect such people to be glad of our approach and joyful about our presence there is a hopeless fantasy. The fact that the resistance has prosecuted the war so well, and for so long, is itself material evidence for our failure: no such insurgency would be possible over a span of six years without the compliance of the civilian population; and even if we were to somehow convince ourselves it was never enthusiastically or even willingly furnished, that still admits an ambivalence on the part of the Afghan people that strongly indicates we are wasting our time, resources, and lives in the country; that when we finally swallow what's left of our pride and leave, as surely we will sooner or later, they will simply go back to living the way they have always lived. Moreover, when the puppet president we have installed to front the show for us himself warns us that our carelessness concerning civilian deaths will have "consequences", as Hamid Karzai did last May, then it should be abundantly clear that the presence of our troops in Afghanistan is, all things considered, detrimental. It takes an act of the will, in defiance of fairness and logic, to maintain we have made and are making of Afghanistan a better place in the face of such evidence.


Concerning the moral and strategic parallels of the Boer War and the Afghanistan War

In evoking the Boer War, I was attempting to frame the current venture in terms that are vaguely distasteful to modern Canadians; the hope was to help clarify some of the thinking that persuades many, perhaps most, Canadians of the injustice of the presence of our troops in Afghanistan. To dispute the similarities by simply suggesting the comparison is a matter of "apples and oranges", as some might be prone, is simply to utter an overworked cliché and not to actually enter into evidence anything disputing the claim. Moreover, it fails to take into account that apples and oranges are both fruits, and come from trees; in a fuller context, it can be seen that apples and oranges do indeed have much in common…

In the larger sense, both the Boer War and the current war in Afghanistan are about securing the interests of Anglo-American concerns, and their foreign proxies, to material resources. In the Boer War, it was principally about gold in the Transvaal and diamonds in the Orange Free State; in Afghanistan, it's oil and natural gas: guaranteed access to, if not the resources themselves per se in Afghanistan's case. Afghanistan is not so much important in its own right as it is a piece of a puzzle that must be put into place to secure a picture; more importantly, it must not be in the hands of others who might make life difficult. A secure presence in Afghanistan, and Iraq, would also help to ring and pressure Iran, or, if necessarily, provide platforms from which to more ably invade it.

In each case, the war was predicated on a political justification. In the Boer War, it was the rights of Britons and uitlanders (foreigners) in the Boer republics (as if any country ever gave anyone who just came trotting over the hill the vote for the asking). In reality, it was a cynical exercise in bringing more of Africa under imperial control in pursuit of Cecil Rhodes's vision of uninterrupted British hegemony in East Africa from "Cape Colony to Cairo", which was ultimately achieved. The ultimate goal was resources and markets. In the current situation, the goal is a subdued Afghanistan that serves wider interests in the Middle East, but facilitated first by claims to be routing out terrorism, and later, when the paucity of that claim became evident, of democratization. When Crusaders sacked cities in the Middle East, they were bringing souls to God; during modern sieges, we bring them instead to the ballot box to elect candidates acceptable to us and servile to our interests.

It's important to draw a parallel. When Canada joined the Boer War in 1899, it was our first imperial venture under our own banner. By that time, we had our own army, and while Britain's declaration of war bound us as well (as was the case until the Statue of Westminster in 1931), it did not oblige us to furnish troops. Canada elected to enable volunteers to do so, although even this measure was unpopular in Quebec. For the first time, Canadians fought as Canadians to subjugate independent foreign nations and to subvert their sovereignty. Fortunately, this was a rare occurrence for Canada per se. So rare, in fact, that the parallel with Afghanistan is all the more compelling.


On the recent shift in paradigm in Canada's military involvements and its ramifications for our international reputation

From the end of the Korean War until the Gulf War, Canada's use of troops in foreign countries outside our alliances was restricted to peace keeping roles. One often hears Afghanistan spoken in the same breath with these missions, but they are distinct and very different in conception. A peace keeping mission is created under the auspices of the United Nations and is agreed to by the combatant parties as a method of separating them in aid of a process of negotiation. It is not about taking sides and wading in with guns blazing; in fact, it cannot be. The inability to grasp the concept was what led to the failure of the US peace keeping effort in Somalia in the mid-90s. But Canada has always been well-matched to the role, and for over 50 years, it has served as the cornerstone of our international reputation, and one that most Canadians are justly proud of.

Recent involvements have cast us in a less positive light as opportunists and imperial camp-followers. Our involvement in the Gulf War, the Balkans War, and Afghanistan have all served to tarnish our reputation as first a peace keeping, rather than war mongering, nation; and secondly, has given other nations reason to question our independence from American foreign policy.

Each war presents a specific problem with exceptionalism. If the Gulf War was not about oil and keeping too much of it out of one man's hands, but was reputedly about territorial integrity and sovereignty, countries could rightly ask, why Kuwait, but not East Timor, or Tibet, or Namibia? If the Balkans War was not about NATO opportunistically rushing in to assert itself in Yugoslavia in the vacuum of influence left by the collapse of the Soviet Union and the temporary exhaustion of Russia, but was reputedly about preventing genocide, the world could rightly ask, why Serbia, but not Cambodia, or Rwanda (where the United States, supposedly so worried about the wellbeing of Croats and Bosnians, actively and openly sabotaged efforts to give real teeth to the UN efforts there)? With Afghanistan, we are faced with immediate hypocrisy: we purport to have fought a war in 1990 for the sovereignty of nations (propping up a despotic monarchy that gave the vote to only 15% of its population); ten years later, we were ourselves the invaders in defiance of the principal of self-determination so important to us where Kuwait's oil was concerned — invading, it should be stressed, the same country whose self-determination we had once considered so sacrosanct only a generation earlier when it was Soviets troops doing the invading. The world may rightly look askance at our recent poor judgment and fairly question the sincerity of our values.

With regard to the suggestion that the Taliban were not only aiding and abetting Osama bin Laden but did in fact know his whereabouts, it's difficult to demonstrate the former, and the latter is unlikely: had any of the moderates in communication with Pakistan in the days leading up the war known, they would certainly have made that information plain to the Allies at the time of the invasion in the hopes of limiting its scope and duration, and we would have long ago apprehended him. Had that actually transpired, with or without their help, I would be in a position of having to give at least some nod to the efficacy of the invasion, though the issues with undermining national sovereignty would remain. However, after nearly six years, the original stated end to which the invasion was the means has still not been accomplished. But what we are left with is a lethal grudge match between our national pride and their cultural survival. If these seem like moral equivalencies, it should be remembered that it is, in fact, their country. Some of the people fighting our troops today where the very same ones we cheered when they fought the Soviet Union's invasion, and they did so for all the same reasons. If they haven't changed, then we have: we find ourselves in the morally equivalent position of the Soviet Union. Naturally, we have, and they had, only the best reasons and the most wholesome of intentions in doing so; in modern times, such invasions are invariably undertaken against the subject people "for their own good", no matter how many thousands of them must be put into the ground to bring it about.


On the use of justification in the service of aggression

Many people are easily gulled by strawman arguments. The typical one used by people who favour the invasion, for whatever their reasons, triumphalist, nationalist, militarist, even sincerely humanitarian ones, is the assertion that to oppose the invasion is to oppose rights for women. The logical fallacy here should be obvious, but it escapes many people who simply succumb to the fear of being tarred as misogynistic. If you were to encounter a man with a gun to another man's head, preparing to fire, would you accept his argument that he must shoot in order that his victim's wife be able to vote or attend school, or moreover, that if you prevented him from doing so, that you would be an accomplice in persecuting women? Of course not. And yet, many of us have accepted this threadbare moralistic proposition on the national level. It makes no sense: we are killing people — many, many innocent people — in the hopes of changing minds. I don't believe this can be accomplished; if anything, we are more likely to turn people against our values than to convince them. After all, how would we react to the values of an invader, brought to us on the point of a sword?

History, especially recent history, teaches us that no idea is adopted before its time, and then rarely by force. We cannot bomb Afghanistan to democracy or egalitarianism; those principles can only take root in soil prepared to nourish them, and the evidence suggests that Afghanistan is simply not yet such a culture; it may perhaps never be. But it's their country, and their culture; it is not for us to decide or decree. No one stormed the Bastille for the French but the French. No army sailed from abroad to thrust the Americans on to the road to democracy, but Minutemen arming themselves in the night and Patriots lining the way to Concord. Germany had already had democracy before the Depression; Japan had been for nearly a century enamored of all things American by the time they surrendered. In those cases, it was simply a matter of removing the obstacles. On the other hand, the Philippines were under the direct administration of the United States for generations and were even being groomed for possible statehood; but in spite of all that, their experience with democracy has been shaky and cynical, its roots as shallow as grass: it simply is not a culture that has wholeheartedly embraced the ethos. The point is that democracy comes from within, not without. We can set examples, but we can't force people to think, feel, and believe in things that do not jibe with their experience of the world or their cultural realities.

The idea that military force is necessary, much less preferable, as a means of effecting change has been disproven numerous times in the past centuries. No one had to invade the British Empire for it to end slavery in 1833. Indeed, no one invaded the United States in aid of that goal, even when it was embroiled in a civil war over the matter. No one invaded France to secure the rights of Algerians to their own self-determination. No one invaded Switzerland to force them to grant women the franchise, even though it was 1971 before they did so. No one invaded South Africa, the modern pariah of our times, to end the suffering and torture of blacks who only wanted freedom, equality, and a say in their own government and future. And yet all these things came to pass, partly due to world diplomatic and economic pressure, and partly because the people themselves became convinced of the justice of those arguments and prepared the way for change. This is not always an easy route, but if we cling to the right to decide for ourselves, we have to respect that in others.

It is not that people who oppose the invasion are happy at the thought of the mistreatment of Afghan women or the horrifying penalties for apostasy in that land; of course not. But there is a larger principle at stake: that of self-determination. The world is constantly changing, and day may come, sooner than we think, when it may be us who are called on the carpet for something we consider natural and desirable in a society, but which offends someone more powerful. If we lightly, cynically, and opportunistically abandon the principle whenever it suits us to achieve some end; if we seize upon someone else's variance from our social and societal norms as justification to invade, overthrow, and destroy, then behind what principle can we stand if and when we find ourselves at the mercy of some greater power? It is our mission to persuade, compel, even shun regimes like Afghanistan. But to remake them in our own image by force like Frankenstein monsters denies their rights, subverts our principles, and sets a precedent that potentially endangers our own future.

I would urge those who would champion expediency over the international principles we have so long, and so painstakingly built to consider these words from A Man for All Seasons:

William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
William Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
 
That Trans-Afghanistan pipeline is a total pipe dream (pun intended). It's not going to happen, and it makes very little economic sense. The original deal was signed between Unocal and the Taliban, back when the latter did at least manage to keep one government in control of most of the country. As soon as Clinton fired cruise missiles at Bin Laden's camps, the deal fell apart. There have long been rumblings about resurrecting it, but they usually come from the conspiracy-minded who say "A-ha! There's a plausible conspiracy to explain the Afghanistan invasion."

There is a simple explanation why it's not going to happen, at least not for a very long time, and why it certainly wasn't worth fighting a war over (in contrast with Iraq which sits on the world's third-largest oil reserves). The biggest reason is that the Turkmenistani gas simply isn't there to buy. Turkmenbashi before he died signed a long-term deal to sell all of its gas production through Russia, to which it has been connected since the Soviet era with an extensive pipeline network. They have long-term contracts with Ukraine and a couple of other Eastern European countries. If Turkmenistan even started making serious rumblings about building the Trans-Afghanistan line, the Russians would simply say "Okay, you can't ship any of your gas with us anymore." This already happened a few years ago. Since the new line would take at least ten years to build, that would mean the Turkmenistanis wouldn't be able to sell a single cubic foot of gas for a decade, which would surely bankrupt an already-impoverished country. For them, it's a much better deal to go with the devil you know (the Russians, who provide a guaranteed if less-than-lucrative market) rather than the devil you don't (a speculative American-backed pipeline through a war zone to Pakistan that would have serious medium-term economic consequences). The U.S. has now occupied Afghanistan for almost six years now, and yet nobody has seriously proposed resurrecting the pipeline project. That should pretty much say it all.
 
The war in Iraq is not the same as Afghanistan, nor are either of these the same as the Boer War.

History, especially recent history, teaches us that no idea is adopted before its time, and then rarely by force.

History does not "teach" us anything. Should we choose to, we can extract lessons that we construct for ourselves. We must also be aware that what we call history is, itself, a construction, and rarely offers us the exacting clarity that we so desire to find in it.
 
Highway 416 is already the Veteran's Memorial Highway..
Veterans are defined as those that served AND survived their war service. The word Veteran comes from the Latin word vetus, meaning "old". This is why we call someone who survived an ordeal or term of service as a veteran, such as a veteran firefighter, politician, businessman, etc.

The Canadian government certainly follows the above definition, see Veteran Affairs Canada at http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/ for details. Our War Dead are handled by other departments, such as Parks Canada and when overseas, DFAIT.

Thus, Highway 416 as the Veteran's Memorial Highway does not, in name, honour those soldiers who die in combat or during service in Afghanistan, since they're not Veterans of their service.
 
Johns Hopkins University estimated, in October of 2006, that approximately 650,000 "excess" deaths had occurred in Iraq since the invasion in March, 2003.

Nobody is arguing with you about Iraq. Canada is not involved in Iraq. The death that has occurred there is tragic but it does not concern us, and has nothing to do with Afghanistan and the issue at hand.


How would we as a people about someone who effectively murdered every human being in Peterborough… or Lethbridge… or Newmarket… or Sarnia, or Port George, Chilliwack, Saint John, or Drummondville?.

You go down a slippery slope when you start comparing and contrasting attrocities because in trying to force your 'America-is-uber-evil' propoganda you ultimately end up 'defending' the likes of Saddam Hussein or the Taliban, which of course is utterly ridiculous.


Now some will no doubt insist that the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan are in no way "conflated", as I think it's been phrased. Putting the question of connectivity aside, let's focus instead of the equivalency of effect.

How convenient that you should want to sweep the little thorny question of 'connectivity' under the carpet: to concede that the States, along with Canada and many other nations, is justified in its mission in Afghanistan is the proverbial little fly in your ointment.

If Iraq has suffered no less than 70,000 needless deaths since 2003, are we to believe that Afghanistan has not suffered something very much like that given that its tribulations have predate those of Iraq by a year and a half?

So now we're going to resort to questionable stats and fictitious inferences? I guess you're pretty much willing to believe anything, as long as it's anti-American.

That's from just one cause, in just the first six months of the invasion, and yet that figure alone represents the number of deaths in 9/11… an event we think of as singular, monstrous, and providing us with carte blanche to do pretty much whatever we want to whomever we deem necessary in the world (one is forced to wonder at this point just what actions the quantities of deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan to date might be fairly considered to justify).

Wow, I read your last comment and a cold chill goes down my spine. I promise you, Lone Primate, you are *not* part of my 'we'.


In the larger sense, both the Boer War and the current war in Afghanistan are about securing the interests of Anglo-American concerns, and their foreign proxies, to material resources).

First of all, we've already established that the mission in Afghanistan is about removing the Taliban. Second of all, the Americans were not involved in the Boer War!


Recent involvements have cast us in a less positive light as opportunists and imperial camp-followers. Our involvement in the Gulf War, the Balkans War, and Afghanistan have all served to tarnish our reputation as first a peace keeping, rather than war mongering, nation; and secondly, has given other nations reason to question our independence from American foreign policy.)

If we are such corrupt and evil lap dogs to the US why did we not get involved in Vietnam or Iraq? And why did we not fall in lock step with American policy vis a vis Cuba?

Also, do you consider France to be a lap dog to the US as well? They have troops in Afghanistan too, incidentally.

Canada does what is right for Canada. That will please some countries some of the time, and anger other countries at other times too. Oh well, that's why we have diplomats.

The world may rightly look askance at our recent poor judgment and fairly question the sincerity of our values..)

Just whose opinion so concerns you, if not that of our allies and trading partners? Are the actions and histories of those who do concern you so unblemished and noble? All countries have their interests and allegiences, and often they conflict. It is a power struggle, and always has been.


With regard to the suggestion that the Taliban were not only aiding and abetting Osama bin Laden but did in fact know his whereabouts, it's difficult to demonstrate the former, and the latter is unlikely..)

I am not suggesting this, I am stating it. The Taliban harboured Al Qaida, Osama, and the network responsible for 911. Once again, if the US was shielding an organization in Nevada that liked to drop bombs on Canada we would feel pretty justified in our reprisals, 'officially' sanctioned or not.

what we are left with is a lethal grudge match between our national pride and their cultural survival.

Canada's 'pride' does not hinge on the mission in Afghanistan. Canada is fulfilling its duty to its alliances, and protecting its national interests. Both major Canadian political parties, representing the vast majority of Canadaians, approved of this mission. It is only the length of the mission that has been at question.

As for the cultural survival of Afghanistan, you continue to confuse Afghanistan with the Taliban, the latter being an extremist group that has only existed since 1995. They no more represent the cultural identity of Afghanistan than the FLQ would of Canada had they taken control of Quebec!


If you were to encounter a man with a gun to another man's head, preparing to fire, would you accept his argument that he must shoot in order that his victim's wife be able to vote or attend school, or moreover, that if you prevented him from doing so, that you would be an accomplice in persecuting women? Of course not.

(I'm getting cold shivers down the spine again).

On the one hand I agree with you that the women's cause as justification for the mission in Afghanistan is a specious argument. I deplore and denounce the cultural practices there, which is fully within my right, but do not think that it is Canada's responsibility to right the wrongs of the world, or impose its cultural beliefs elsewhere. It is our responsibility to prevent those beliefs from allowing any inroad here! Assuming you are a Canadian, your suggestion that the fundamental rights of an individual (female or otherwise), as we perceive them in Canada, are not worth protecting or fighting for is extremely alarming to me and makes me question who else you'd be so willing to sell down the river? Gays? Certain religious groups? Non-Afghanis or non-Iraquis? I find this line of reasoning here, and in other points of your thread, to be insideously dangerous.

History, especially recent history, teaches us that no idea is adopted before its time, and then rarely by force. We cannot bomb Afghanistan to democracy or egalitarianism; those principles can only take root in soil prepared to nourish them, and the evidence suggests that Afghanistan is simply not yet such a culture; it may perhaps never be. But it's their country, and their culture; it is not for us to decide or decree. No one stormed the Bastille for the French but the French. No army sailed from abroad to thrust the Americans on to the road to democracy, but Minutemen arming themselves in the night and Patriots lining the way to Concord..

All of which is fine by me, providing the place in question isn't facilitating attacks on other countries such as the Taliban did. In that case, bombs away!


The idea that military force is necessary, much less preferable, as a means of effecting change has been disproven numerous times in the past centuries. No one had to invade the British Empire for it to end slavery in 1833. Indeed, no one invaded the United States in aid of that goal, even when it was embroiled in a civil war over the matter...

Actually, the British allied themselves with the Confederacy as it was in their national interests to do so (needed cotton for their mills). The French aided the colonial rebels in the 13 colonies because it was in their interest to flame conflict for their rivals across the Channel. And what do we often see now? The French as allies to the British, and the British as allies with the Americans!!!! Full circle. So goes the world. Deal!
 
Post: Veterans ask city to rename DVP

Another highway renaming controversy?

Link to article

Veterans ask city to rename DVP
Spring Request; No reply from City Hall 'a slap in the face'

Adrian Humphreys
National Post

Tuesday, October 02, 2007

Veterans say their letters to the Mayor seeking to rename the Don Valley Parkway in honour of Canada's war dead have been ignored since the spring, leading some retired officers to decry the lack of courtesy and question the silence.

A proposal to rechristen the DVP, the route that the remains of all of Canada's soldiers killed in Afghanistan travel en route to the Toronto coroner's office, was jointly made in May by the Fort York branch of the Royal Canadian Legion and the St. George's Society, the city's oldest charity. No reply was received.

A second letter to Mayor David Miller about renaming the DVP the Veterans Memorial Parkway was sent in July. That also has gone unanswered, veterans say.

"This requires a simple 'We'll look into it' or 'No, we're not interested.' But to have no response at all? It is a slap in the face. It is terribly discourteous," said Marv Rich, a retired colonel and president of the Fort York legion.

He wonders if the controversy this summer, when a backlash prompted a reversal of a city order to remove "Support Our Troops" decals from fire trucks, is at the root of the silence.

"Maybe there is a political sensitivity here, but, jeepers, people fought and died for freedom," he said.

A spokesman for Mr. Miller said the letters have been received and a response will be sent. He would not say what the reply would be or what the Mayor thinks about the idea.

"Toronto is certainly not lacking for tributes to our veterans. We greatly respect them and greatly appreciate their sacrifices," said Stuart Green, spokesman for Mr. Miller.

"We get a lot of letters in the office and we don't respond to them all as quickly as we would like sometimes," he said.

Mr. Green dismissed suggestions the Mayor was trying to avoid another spat with veterans by sitting on the letters.

Bob Dale, a Second World War veteran awarded both the Distinguished Service Order and the Distinguished Flying Cross, said Toronto is hardly awash in tributes.

"It needs something tangible, not a once-a-year thing, especially for the young people. Having this road renamed would be a daily reminder," he said.

The idea arose after the provincial government started accepting proposals for renaming provincial highways to recognize public sacrifice.

The Fort York legion had few options -- there are only two provincial highways running through Toronto, the Queen Elizabeth Way and Highway 401, also named the Macdonald-Cartier Freeway. Both already honour prominent people.

Thoughts turned to the DVP, a city-owned, six-lane expressway.

"Toronto has only two significant public monuments honouring our veterans. They are the Cenotaph at Old City Hall and the new Memorial Wall at Queen's Park. They only receive attention on Remembrance Day," says the first letter to Mr. Miller.

Veterans deserve more, it concludes: "Without their sacrifices, Toronto could not be the city it is today."

Since the letters were sent, the province has given the name "Highway of Heroes" to the portion of Highway 401 stretching from the military base in Trenton, where the flag-draped caskets of soldiers arrive from Afghanistan, to the top of the DVP.

The military corteges then proceed down the DVP to the Toronto coroner's office.

Moving, impromptu gatherings of civilians and emergency personnel have gathered along the route and on overpasses to greet each of the war dead.
 
I don't necessarily object to the idea of memorials for veterans, but we already have a Veterans Memorial Highway, and the 401 is about to be named the "Highway of Heroes" for veterans as well.

Driving in the states, I noticed that every second highway seemed to be named the Pearl Harbor Memorial Freeway.
 
Why stop at the DVP? Why not consider renaming every artery in honour of our war dead? Surely proper respect demands that any road, street, avenue or back alley known to have been stepped on by a veteran be given a new moniker.
 

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