2014 Municipal Election: Toronto Transit Plans

[ehlow]

I'm displeased by Chow's comments, but at the same time I would still pick her over Tory, for a number of reasons which I won't re-hash here.

But I think that it's not fair to make the assumption that GO RER will maintain the same fare structure as GO does now. SmartTrack and RER cannot and will not be able to exist side-by-side, and Metrolinx has recognized the need for more equitable, integrated fares between TTC and GO RER.

Tory's re-branding of RER as his own idea still rubs me the wrong way, but so does Chow's opportunism in using that fact to bash the RER proposal.

Also, I have tried to overlook it, but I can't: SmartTrack, not Smartrax.

I agree that even if Tory isn't elected, something like SmartTrack is likely to happen anyways as GO RER. I'm just hopeful that they consider adding more stops than the existing GO stops and price it be attractive for local trips, as well as looking at the possibility of through-routing GO lines like SmartTrack does with Georgetown & Stouffville.

 

[innsertnamehere]

GO specifically discusses infill stops and they are already planning fare integration with the TTC in 2016. They have already issued a tender for a new St. Clair stop on the Barrie GO line.

Remember that inside Toronto GO transit over 40 trips is only $34 more a month already. Eglinton Station to Union is $172 a month compared to $138 or whatever it is for a TTC metropass.

 

[kEiThZ]

keithz,

I agree with your enthusiasm for GO RER & SmartTrack, and yes I think Metrolinx could cancel the Eglinton West portion (or "postpone it to the next phase" meaning cancel) when negotiating with Tory.

However I must emphasize again that for regional transit with stops > 1-2km apart to work, it is absolutely essential to have frequent well integrated local transit with shorter stop spacing in the suburbs, so that people can get to & from the GO RER stops.

For example, say you live at CityPlace downtown need to get to work at AMD's office in Markham at Leslie & Highway 7. It's 7 km away from the Unionville GO station at highway 7. The only way to get there from the GO station is a 10-15 min bus ride along highway 7, then another 5-10 min walk to the office. I guess it's possible for larger companies to provide a shuttle like they do in Silicon Valley but still, someone has to provide the last mile service, probably better for Viva to.

Despite the bus/walking travel time, above trip could still be preferable to driving since our highways are insanely congested, and with the speed of GO RER, it could still be competitive. Transit also has the advantage of the commuter being able to read or do work during the trip, of course.

Or another obvious example is someone living in Scarborough would need a local bus, BRT or LRT with close stop spacing (so that most people are within walking distance of a stop from their house) in order to get to the GO RER station to get to work in SouthCore downtown.

If more development happens within walking distance of the stops in the future it becomes less of a problem (which I hope it will), but as it is local transit is essential and complementary to regional, not competing against it.

I don't disagree with you. I don't discount the need for buses, streetcars and a medium haul solution like LRT and subways. The problem as I see it, is one of priorities. The reason people so easily fall for the rhetoric of guys like Rob Ford, is because they are desperate for someone to speed up their commutes. Not by 10 minutes. But by 30 minutes. Speeding up your local transit won't do that. Improving the long-haul network will. GO electrification and/or Smart Track won't just increase transit usage. I'm betting you'll actually see more public support for public transit at large, along with taxes for transit support and perhaps even transit that's perceived to interfere with driving. But first you have to actually show people that transit can be fast. Upgrading bus to LRT won't help all that much. New suburban rail will.

My 2 cents...anyway.

 

[canarob]

The Uxbridge sub portion of Smart-Track is possibly the only sound piece of planning of the whole thing (presuming replacement of the GO line which still has issues for GO users north of Unionville), and its the part shes showing as problematic.

I'm still confused as to how you could have 15-minute runs from Union to Unionville while still allowing for existing GO service with only two tracks. I had always assumed that Smart Track would require at least 3 tracks, or at least long sections of passing track. I hope the plan isn't to force a transfer at Unionville and include all those extra stops on all trips. This would significantly increase travel times for existing users, and I can't imagine the province would want to anger all of eastern York Region.

 

[kEiThZ]

Remember that inside Toronto GO transit over 40 trips is only $34 more a month already. Eglinton Station to Union is $172 a month compared to $138 or whatever it is for a TTC metropass.

But you don't get to use any transit beyond Eglinton Station once you get off unless you were using the TTC prior to getting on the GO train. That's what makes the proposition a tough sell. This kind of GO ride should be half the price it is today to actually get riders moving off the Yonge line.

 

[kEiThZ]

I'm still confused as to how you could have 15-minute runs from Union to Unionville while still allowing for existing GO service with only two tracks. I had always assumed that Smart Track would require at least 3 tracks, or at least long sections of passing track. I hope the plan isn't to force a transfer at Unionville and include all those extra stops on all trips. This would significantly increase travel times for existing users, and I can't imagine the province would want to anger all of eastern York Region.

If they don't want that, they'll have to come up with a way to merge SmartTrack and GO RER. This is why it seems obvious to me.

 

[canarob]

If they don't want that, they'll have to come up with a way to merge SmartTrack and GO RER. This is why it seems obvious to me.

York Region and the province don't have to do anything -- it's provincial infrastructure. Even if you extended 15-minute service all the way up to Stouffville, which would be ridiculous, it would still be a longer trip than what's there now and would make trips less competitive compared to driving to Kennedy, Don Mills or Finch, thus adding more congestion on existing subway lines . I'm fine with SmartTrack only if there is enough rail capacity to still allow for express rush hour GO service. I think most folks could live with a transfer at off-peak times if the service was every 15 minutes, even though this would be about double the time it would take the existing GO bus service on most days.

 

[Rainforest]

York Region and the province don't have to do anything -- it's provincial infrastructure. Even if you extended 15-minute service all the way up to Stouffville, which would be ridiculous, it would still be a longer trip than what's there now and would make trips less competitive compared to driving to Kennedy, Don Mills or Finch, thus adding more congestion on existing subway lines . I'm fine with SmartTrack only if there is enough rail capacity to still allow for express rush hour GO service. I think most folks could live with a transfer at off-peak times if the service was every 15 minutes, even though this would be about double the time it would take the existing GO bus service on most days.

They can alternate between Unionville and Stouffville trains, with trains to Stouffville running every 30 min or 1 hour, and short-turn trains filling the gaps to provide a combined 15-min frequency between Union and Unionville.

If the track is not electrified past Unionville, then it may be possible to hook diesel engines to EMUs and haul them to the end of the line.

I don't think an express service can be maintained on this line, as express train would be catching up with local trains. However, "local" service would still have rather wide stop spacing, 2 km or more. The added travel time, compared to the present state, should not exceed 10 min.

There are major concerns about the track capacity limitations for SmartTrack, but I think they relate mostly to the downtown section, East Toronto, and the Scarborough Junction. The Uxbridge sub itself should be OK.

 

[Rainforest]

I've officially given up this election. Tory has Smart-track which is absolutely insanely unworkable and is essentially little more than a line on the map with no mention as how the hell it would fit or work with GO transit and in the corridors it runs off (Tory just waves that as "Engineers will do that"), Chow is lying about problems with Smart-Track even though there are dozens of valid criticisms, Ford is straight up incompetent. Its a lose-lose-lose. Honestly Tory would probably be the best mayor but the Smart-track plan is unbelievably idiotic as it is likely straight up impossible to construct and will likely do nothing but delay the DRL, which really disappointing me. Chow I was fairly sure of voting for but her hyperbole and false criticisms reek, and Ford is well, Ford.

Wow, they are still not equal. Doug Ford is the worst option, judging by his brother's history and Doug's position during his brother's term. He will immediately reopen debates about Finch and the Eglinton East design, and probably find other ways to disrupt the transit progress.

Chow is reasonable overall, but don't like her desire to reopen the Scarborough Subway issue. Regardless of who prevails at the end, the very fact that it gets reopen will hurt the transit cause.

Tory is the best option, IMO. I am sure that his SmartTrack cannot be built exactly as he presents it now, but at the same time, I expect some of his ideas to merge with GO RER and make the latter more useful for Torontonians.

 

[innsertnamehere]

That is largely what I expect as well, but I worry about him forcing a $3 billion tunnel on Eglinton that isn't really needed. I'm sort of jumping back and forth between Chow and Tory right now depending on my mood, I'll probably not really make up my mind until I am in the voting booth itself. I've been like that on a lot of municipal issues lately actually, jumping back and forth on support for the scarborough subway and the airport expansion. Its kind of weird because I'm not like that at all for federal and provincial politics.

 

[Rainforest]

That is largely what I expect as well, but I worry about him forcing a $3 billion tunnel on Eglinton that isn't really needed. I'm sort of jumping back and forth between Chow and Tory right now depending on my mood, I'll probably not really make up my mind until I am in the voting booth itself. I've been like that on a lot of municipal issues lately actually, jumping back and forth on support for the scarborough subway and the airport expansion. Its kind of weird because I'm not like that at all for federal and provincial politics.

That Eglinton tunnel is the part of SmartTrack least likely to happen. Where will he get money for it? Most likely, either all trains will run in the Weston corridor north of Eglinton, or 1/2 of service will short-turn at Mt Dennis and the other 1/2 will run north.

Anyway, a vote for either Tory or Chow is good as a vote against Ford.

 

[ehlow]

Wow, they are still not equal. Doug Ford is the worst option, judging by his brother's history and Doug's position during his brother's term. He will immediately reopen debates about Finch and the Eglinton East design, and probably find other ways to disrupt the transit progress.

Chow is reasonable overall, but don't like her desire to reopen the Scarborough Subway issue. Regardless of who prevails at the end, the very fact that it gets reopen will hurt the transit cause.

Tory is the best option, IMO. I am sure that his SmartTrack cannot be built exactly as he presents it now, but at the same time, I expect some of his ideas to merge with GO RER and make the latter more useful for Torontonians.

I agree with this. With Tory the transit projects already planned (and under construction) are safe (Eglinton, Finch, Sheppard, Scarborough). At this point with the extra Federal money I'd prefer just moving ahead with the Scarborough subway.

I generally prefer moving forward and building transit and not re-opening decisions.

From the perspective of easing the whole "suburbs vs downtown" anger that the Fords encouraged, switching back to the LRT and forcing the SRT riders onto buses for the 2-3 year conversion would likely anger a lot of Scarborough residents in my opinion.

Polls are not always accurate, but polls show Tory with strong support in both the suburbs and downtown, and I do think he could be the one to somewhat "unite" both suburbs and downtown, or at least not be as divisive or polarizing.

I would fine with Chow as well though.

 

[Tuscani01]

Polls are not always accurate, but polls show Tory with strong support in both the suburbs and downtown, and I do think he could be the one to somewhat "unite" both suburbs and downtown, or at least not be as divisive or polarizing.

Ermmm...

These latest numbers suggest 39 per cent of voters want Tory for mayor while 37 per cent are supporting Ford. That means the two candidates are essentially tied — the poll had a sample size of 1,218 random voters, and a stated margin for error of 2.8 percentage points, 19 times out of 20

Ford is leading in Etobicoke and Scarborough in the new Forum poll; Tory is leading downtown and in North York. For several months, Tory’s support has been on the upswing, and he’s held the top spot in every poll taken since July 30.

http://www.thestar.com/news/city_ha...s_on_john_tory_tied_in_latest_forum_poll.html

 

[ehlow]

Ermmm...





http://www.thestar.com/news/city_ha...s_on_john_tory_tied_in_latest_forum_poll.html

Well, I did post that a few minutes before the new poll came out I think... bad timing?

 

[MrsNesbitt]

I agree with this. With Tory the transit projects already planned (and under construction) are safe (Eglinton, Finch, Sheppard, Scarborough). At this point with the extra Federal money I'd prefer just moving ahead with the Scarborough subway.

I generally prefer moving forward and building transit and not re-opening decisions.

From the perspective of easing the whole "suburbs vs downtown" anger that the Fords encouraged, switching back to the LRT and forcing the SRT riders onto buses for the 2-3 year conversion would likely anger a lot of Scarborough residents in my opinion.

Polls are not always accurate, but polls show Tory with strong support in both the suburbs and downtown, and I do think he could be the one to somewhat "unite" both suburbs and downtown, or at least not be as divisive or polarizing.

I would fine with Chow as well though.

Much as I hate to admit it, you are right enough...I would personally want Chow because I don't think that Toronto will benefit after four years of Rob Ford slash-and-burn by electing yet another rich centre-right, cuts-and-privatization-happy mayor, but that's my own opinion and not wholly relevant to the transit discussion. I think that the Scarborough Subway is a waste of money of epic proportions, and so part of me would welcome Chow reopening the debate, but you're right in saying that that would only hurt the cause of transit in general.

So long as Tory bends the knee to Wynne at King's Landing (Queen's Park ) and agrees to allow SmartTrack to be subsumed into GO RER, I would be happy enough...