2014 Municipal Election: Toronto Transit Plans

[TheTigerMaster]

the only way we get "subway like" service on GO lines is with positive train control. Metrolinx have asked suppliers to weigh in, but implementation of that has expensive and difficult in US installs - we should not assume that it would slide in here. Electrification has to happen, and vehicle procurement and commissioning.

Do GO not use PTC? How do they control the trains?

i keep seeing people say that SmartTrack or whatever must operate at TTC fare in the 416, but if the cost per fare ends up driving all TTC fares skyward, the many parts of the city this scheme doesn't do a damn thing for might have something to say about that. After all, that (paying more for costly to run but express service) has been considered fair for punters taking the 140 series of TTC routes in the past.

I agree. I'd rather pay a surcharge of a few cents to use SmartTrack (if it gets built; it won't) than have all of our fares raised.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

They are different plans for the reason Torontonians care about the most.........the fares. Smartrax is a TTC fare while GO RER will use much more expensive GO fares. Even if there is, eventually, fare integration that will still place the fares too high for many.

Both SmartTrack and GO RER will not and can not be built. I cannot stress this enough. There is simply not enough room on the rail corridors.

And building the $8 Billion SmartTrack just to have TTC fares is beyond ridiculous. It would be far easier to introduce TTC fare to our six RER lines.

I also think there is enough room for Smartrax

And you think this because...?

 

[Palma]

i keep seeing people say that SmartTrack or whatever must operate at TTC fare in the 416, but if the cost per fare ends up driving all TTC fares skyward, the many parts of the city this scheme doesn't do a damn thing for might have something to say about that. After all, that (paying more for costly to run but express service) has been considered fair for punters taking the 140 series of TTC routes in the past.

WEll does it not make sense then that fare by distance is finally introduced to the TTC?

 

[ehlow]

Both SmartTrack and GO RER will not and can not be built. I cannot stress this enough. There is simply not enough room on the rail corridors.

And building the $8 Billion SmartTrack just to have TTC fares is beyond ridiculous. It would be far easier to introduce TTC fare to our six RER lines.



And you think this because...?

SmartTrack, if it happens, would use the tracks set aside for GO RER. "I cannot stress this enough". It's like Slim Shady and Eminem, they're the same person, one is just the evil & crazy version of the other

Several Chow volunteers came into the coffee shop I was at today and were talking about how "smart track can never happen". It's kind of sad to me that the main message of Chow's campaign now is to tear apart something that has caught on with the city and given them hope for quickly improving transit significantly. I always figured she would have a message of positivity and hope, making the city better, rather than be focused on trying to destroy hope voters have for an opponents transit plan which would vastly improve people's lives. Personally it really turns me off re: Chow that her whole message is based on attacking someone else's idea.

Re dowlingm & fares. The same thing could be said about any new transit line costing TTC fare & requiring operating subsidy, like the DRL or Eglinton Crosstown.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Regarding hope
Tory has given voters false hope in his impossible SmartTrack plan. He's given Torontonians hope that he'll be delivering rapid transit stretching all across our city, when in reality he's just riding on the coattails of our RER plan. Tory wants us to believe that he'll improve transit in Toronto when in reality he's proposed no such thing. The man is winning an election on false pretenses. It's a damn shame that Tory is too cowardly to use this election as an opportunity to bring forward more meamingful proposals to improve transportation in our city.

Lol @ slim shady reference btw

 

[rbt]

if we're saying FRA compliant bilevel 25kV AC, no there isn't. New Jersey Transit are thinking about something along those lines, but nothing in production.

If GO wants to do that, they'll have a large enough order spread over a decade to make designing a custom car worth while.

Off-the-shelf is important when you're buying 20 units. It's not such a big deal when you're shopping for 200+ units.

 

[rbt]

Several Chow volunteers came into the coffee shop I was at today and were talking about how "smart track can never happen". It's kind of sad to me that the main message of Chow's campaign now is to tear apart something that has caught on with the city and given them hope for quickly improving transit significantly.

Isn't it reasonable to want a mayor who intends to do something with their mayor powers?

GO RER is happening (yay). I wish we had the option to elect a mayor who intended to do something useful in addition to what the province intends to do. Tory is a "do nothing" vote (and incidentally is who I will be voting for). Tory gets 4 years to sit back and relax while the province does all the heavy lifting; I'm voting for Tory largely because I don't think he will get in the way.


My ideal mayor candidate would have been one who promised to work with the province to smooth the way for GO RER, work with the province on fare integration, and propose to build something like WWLRT within 5 years.

 

[WislaHD]

Regarding hope
Tory has given voters false hope in his impossible SmartTrack plan. He's given Torontonians hope that he'll be delivering rapid transit stretching all across our city, when in reality he's just riding on the coattails of our RER plan. Tory wants us to believe that he'll improve transit in Toronto when in reality he's proposed no such thing. The man is winning an election on false pretenses. It's a damn shame that Tory is too cowardly to use this election as an opportunity to bring forward more meamingful proposals to improve transportation in our city.

Lol @ slim shady reference btw

Chow is no different.

She advertizes it as a Day 1 solution when her bus plan is impossible with current resources, will require multiple years of construction and tendering of new buses, without a proper plan to fund it, while also being very misleading to the public on the costs and timescale of her bus plan.


In any case, I don't think that way. I think Tory trying to make GO RER have fare integration with the TTC would do wonders for improving transit within the 416. The GO lines and GO RER included are largely for the 905 and are useless to those in the city. Yes it exists but nobody is going to be paying that excessively high fare. If Tory accomplishes fare integration of GO RER before moving on to the DRL in a few years time, then I consider this a massive victory for Toronto.

 

[dowlingm]

It matters because if there are massive disparities between cost and fare, and no damn good reason why (Wheeltrans) then people riding buses to buses to subways are gonna start asking where THEIR one seat express ride is, and for someone else to pay. Also, low cost riding from the burbs pushes more development out there rather than sustainable intensification in the core.

 

[WislaHD]

You do raise a good point about low cost riding in the burbs. Having Stouffville and Georgetown passengers pay TTC fares for GO RER seems a little ridiculous. Why not fare zones where the stations inside the 416 accept TTC fare and outside the 416 GO fare?

As for express rides... Tory in the spring did propose queue lane jumping and express bus routes. He and his team has said absolutely nothing on his Bus Plan since however. Would be nice to see him (re-)announce his Bus Plan now that the campaign is coming to an end, it would put a final nail in the coffin on Chow's campaign if he released a better Bus Plan for the suburbs.

 

[dowlingm]

Ssiguy - don't put words in my mouth. Of course TTC services require subsidy, but ideally service expansions would not create unrealistically large subsidy needs PER RIDE. This drives up subsidy beyond service growth or requires fare increases above nominal cost growth. GO runs at high fare:subsidy ratios but this is due to fare by distance and operating massive trainsets.

tigermaster - GO uses block signals at present. PTC requires more precise location and control of trains, and that ALL trains in a PTC corridor be able to talk to the system, in order to decrease headways to "subway like" frequencies. This has implications for corridors where freight companies exercise traffic rights, or parts still owned by freight companies (North Richmond Hill, part of Georgetown, CP Milton, outer parts of Lakeshore West)

rbt: the question I answered was whether low door heavy rail EMU exists now. SmartTrack could use 25kV single level high floor equipment like UPX which would make the Eglinton tunnelling a lot cheaper but then that doesn't match the platform heights in the rest of the system. Metra has the EMU gallery cars but they use lower voltage supplies so there would be a question about transformer size, and the higher roof height would mean a massive Eglinton tunnel size requirement.

someone asked if I favour fare by distance. This causes some equity issues in transit dependent neighbourhoods on the outskirts of 416 where transit is slow/infrequent. I think express transit is a bit different and particularly where it coexists with slower modes at the same price and isn't delivering the sorts of frequency and capacity boosts that subway does.

 

[gweed123]

If GO wants to do that, they'll have a large enough order spread over a decade to make designing a custom car worth while.

Off-the-shelf is important when you're buying 20 units. It's not such a big deal when you're shopping for 200+ units.

I've always said that a key component of the Big Move should have been the manufacturing of the vehicles necessary for it in places like Oshawa and Windsor. There's a significant manufacturing-competent workforce in both of those places that are looking for work. That way, more parts of the Province benefit from the Big Move, even if they aren't areas that would be served by it.

As for the size of orders, I think they would definitely be large enough to warrant that type of manufacturing deployment. Windsor in particular would greatly benefit from being the construction hub of all of the new GO EMUs. That would be at least 10 years of solid employment for hundreds if not thousands of workers, with the potential for more if other North American cities look at what the GTA is doing with RER and want to emulate.

 

[Rainforest]

Isn't it reasonable to want a mayor who intends to do something with their mayor powers?

GO RER is happening (yay). I wish we had the option to elect a mayor who intended to do something useful in addition to what the province intends to do. Tory is a "do nothing" vote (and incidentally is who I will be voting for). Tory gets 4 years to sit back and relax while the province does all the heavy lifting; I'm voting for Tory largely because I don't think he will get in the way.

"Sitting back and not getting in the way" is not the worst scenario.

However, I doubt that Tory can afford that, if he hopes to get elected again in 2018. If all we get is GO RER with higher than TTC fare, then it will be useful for relatively few riders, and certainly will not resolve the core subway capacity problems.

If Tory gets TTC standard fare on the two "SmartTrack" GO RER lines, but cannot figure out a way to increase the frequency dramatically, then those two lines will probably get overwhelmed by the demand, and simply won't be able to operate.

A meaningful implementation of SmartTrack will require both TTC fare and high capacity. That almost certainly mandates a downtown rail tunnel.

 

[ehlow]

Regarding hope
Tory has given voters false hope in his impossible SmartTrack plan. He's given Torontonians hope that he'll be delivering rapid transit stretching all across our city, when in reality he's just riding on the coattails of our RER plan. Tory wants us to believe that he'll improve transit in Toronto when in reality he's proposed no such thing. The man is winning an election on false pretenses. It's a damn shame that Tory is too cowardly to use this election as an opportunity to bring forward more meamingful proposals to improve transportation in our city.

Lol @ slim shady reference btw

How do you keep saying it's impossible when 80% of it is the same as GO RER, which is happening anyways?

You yourself keeps saying that GO RER, additional stops, and fare integration is happening anyways. Yet SmartTrack is "impossible"? You can't have it both ways.

 

[ehlow]

Isn't it reasonable to want a mayor who intends to do something with their mayor powers?

GO RER is happening (yay). I wish we had the option to elect a mayor who intended to do something useful in addition to what the province intends to do. Tory is a "do nothing" vote (and incidentally is who I will be voting for). Tory gets 4 years to sit back and relax while the province does all the heavy lifting; I'm voting for Tory largely because I don't think he will get in the way.


My ideal mayor candidate would have been one who promised to work with the province to smooth the way for GO RER, work with the province on fare integration, and propose to build something like WWLRT within 5 years.

Chow is no different.

She advertizes it as a Day 1 solution when her bus plan is impossible with current resources, will require multiple years of construction and tendering of new buses, without a proper plan to fund it, while also being very misleading to the public on the costs and timescale of her bus plan.


In any case, I don't think that way. I think Tory trying to make GO RER have fare integration with the TTC would do wonders for improving transit within the 416. The GO lines and GO RER included are largely for the 905 and are useless to those in the city. Yes it exists but nobody is going to be paying that excessively high fare. If Tory accomplishes fare integration of GO RER before moving on to the DRL in a few years time, then I consider this a massive victory for Toronto.

Agreed with the above.

You do raise a good point about low cost riding in the burbs. Having Stouffville and Georgetown passengers pay TTC fares for GO RER seems a little ridiculous. Why not fare zones where the stations inside the 416 accept TTC fare and outside the 416 GO fare?

As for express rides... Tory in the spring did propose queue lane jumping and express bus routes. He and his team has said absolutely nothing on his Bus Plan since however. Would be nice to see him (re-)announce his Bus Plan now that the campaign is coming to an end, it would put a final nail in the coffin on Chow's campaign if he released a better Bus Plan for the suburbs.

It's not different from the rest of transit in Toronto. You can get from Northern Etobicoke to Scarborough by TTC with one TTC fare now, or any long distance trip within Toronto. It's just very slow.

With GO RER or SmartTrack, it will have to be TTC for distance normally covered by TTC, say like St Clair West to Spadina stations, or Agincourt to Union. Those trips already cost one TTC fare now. But someone going Milton to Toronto or something will obviously have to pay more.