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2014 Municipal Election: Toronto Transit Plans

The problem with Tory's plan is that it's a combo of a plan we already know about (Provincial RER) with a massive brain fart that is the Union-Eglinton West part. Every time someone points out just how stupid building a massive tunnel to bend heavy rail onto Eglinton is, either financially, technically or by comparison with alternatives like Phase 2 Crosstown, he doubles down and says "that isn't what I heard". The Globe had someone walk Eglinton with a freakin' altimeter to estimate 8km of tunnel required and he's like "nope, I believe and that's that".

well John, I saw "Book of Mormon" in the PoWT last night and as one of the songs goes "man up, like Jesus" and admit what the feasibility studies are going to make you say - you relied on Google and got burned, and are ready to talk about feasible alternatives.

As for Doug Ford, he has no plan because to build the volume of subways he wants will require massive sums which just aren't going to be forthcoming from higher government - Provincial cash flow is tight enough as it is. He's saying "I know where the money is" like Rob but Rob also said "no service cuts guaranteed" and we saw how that went. Olivia might have face planted out the gate by downplaying DRL for fear of Scarb but in terms of short and medium term wins, that's where the action is.

edit: actually, Soknacki Baskin and Goldkind have/had the best transit platform. Variations of "we're not transit planners, it's our job to find the cash so the people who are can do their job"
 
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I agree.

Tory's plan using existing corridors is doable and pragmatic. It's not rocket science, he's simply using rail transit corridors for transit. He is doing exactly what GO does except they will be TTC fares which makes them affordable to the average transit user.
I think UPX is toast after the Pan-Am Games as Torontonians realize their $500 million line is yet another they can't afford and he would be wise to try to get it off Metrolinx's filthy hands and make it part of the TTC service.

Vancouver has real rapid transit to the airport at regular prices and there is absolutely no excuse why Toronto shouldn't either.
 
ssiguy2 said:
I agree.

Tory's plan using existing corridors is doable and pragmatic. It's not rocket science, he's simply using rail transit corridors for transit. He is doing exactly what GO does except they will be TTC fares which makes them affordable to the average transit user.
I think UPX is toast after the Pan-Am Games as Torontonians realize their $500 million line is yet another they can't afford and he would be wise to try to get it off Metrolinx's filthy hands and make it part of the TTC service.

Vancouver has real rapid transit to the airport at regular prices and there is absolutely no excuse why Toronto shouldn't either.
Click to expand...

Tory's plan to use existing corridors isn't doable, nor is it pragmatic. I suggest you head over to Steve Munro's blog, where he goes over in details many of the reasons why John Tory's SmartTrack plan is impossible. Much of it is because there simply isn't enough room to fit an additional corridor for SmartTrack b
 
dowlingm said:
The problem with Tory's plan is that it's a combo of a plan we already know about (Provincial RER) with a massive brain fart that is the Union-Eglinton West part. Every time someone points out just how stupid building a massive tunnel to bend heavy rail onto Eglinton is, either financially, technically or by comparison with alternatives like Phase 2 Crosstown, he doubles down and says "that isn't what I heard". The Globe had someone walk Eglinton with a freakin' altimeter to estimate 8km of tunnel required and he's like "nope, I believe and that's that".

well John, I saw "Book of Mormon" in the PoWT last night and as one of the songs goes "man up, like Jesus" and admit what the feasibility studies are going to make you say - you relied on Google and got burned, and are ready to talk about feasible alternatives.

As for Doug Ford, he has no plan because to build the volume of subways he wants will require massive sums which just aren't going to be forthcoming from higher government - Provincial cash flow is tight enough as it is. He's saying "I know where the money is" like Rob but Rob also said "no service cuts guaranteed" and we saw how that went. Olivia might have face planted out the gate by downplaying DRL for fear of Scarb but in terms of short and medium term wins, that's where the action is.

edit: actually, Soknacki Baskin and Goldkind have/had the best transit platform. Variations of "we're not transit planners, it's our job to find the cash so the people who are can do their job"
Click to expand...

Of course Tory can't admit that the Eglinton West part was poorly researched (which it obviously was very poorly), or make any changes to the plan, no matter how reasonable, until after the election.

If any candidates admit to a mistake or changes anything in their plan their opponents will tear them apart. And politically, Tory has a lot more to lose than gain, being in the lead position.

The optimal way politically is to stick to his map no matter what and deflect any detailed questions, as he has been doing (and is working). Once the election is over and real transit experts actually do real design work and feasibility studies, I assume many parts of SmartTrack will be changed.

All I'm hoping for with "SmartTrack" (and GO RER) is that some form of rapid transit comes to Georgetown & Stouffville corridors that can be used for trips within Toronto.

I recognize the current plan for what it is: a line hastily drawn on a map with no design work or studies done, which is judged by campaign staff to be a winner politically.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
The Globe and Mail has published a positive report on the merits of John Tory's SmartTrack plan. Take a look at it:
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/t...ough-questions/article20923882?service=mobile
Click to expand...

My problem with the analysis on capacity & peak ridership when determining the size of the trains is that they assume trains have an exact frequency of every 15 min all day. The GO RER presentation says that GO RER will be every 15 min or less, so more frequent during peak. I see no reason why higher frequencies can't happen at peak with a double tracked corridor.

They make an issue of train size and having to extend the stations. If anything like SmartTrack ever happens, there will likely need to be a lot of work re-doing the stations and adding more stations anyways, it won't simply use the GO stations as they are.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Tory's plan to use existing corridors isn't doable, nor is it pragmatic. I suggest you head over to Steve Munro's blog, where he goes over in details many of the reasons why John Tory's SmartTrack plan is impossible. Much of it is because there simply isn't enough room to fit an additional corridor for SmartTrack b
Click to expand...

If something like SmartTrack happens it will simply be GO RER on the tracks & capacity they've already been building and will be building regardless of SmartTrack.

Georgetown, we all know is being upgraded, whatever "SmartTrack" is will run on the two GO tracks. Stouffville, Metrolinx wants to double track, which is enough for a rapid transit line.

My interpretation of SmartTrack is that it takes the two tracks from GO and gives it to the TTC. I don't think it makes any sense nor is it feasible to have both GO RER and SmartTrack as separate services. SmartTrack, if it happens, will be GO RER with TTC fares and extra stops. It's can't be an additional transit line running alongside GO RER, that would make no sense at all.
 
GO RER and SmartTrack are different plans... Or that's at least what Tory wants us to believe.

What frequencies has Tory set for his SmartTrack plan? I can't find any reference to 15 min or less.
 
ehlow said:
They make an issue of train size and having to extend the stations. If anything like SmartTrack ever happens, there will likely need to be a lot of work re-doing the stations and adding more stations anyways, it won't simply use the GO stations as they are.
Click to expand...

I do hope the GO station are rebuilt with RER. These GO stations that amount to nothing more than concrete slabs aren't cutting it for me. Is it a waste of money?... probably ;)
 
TheTigerMaster said:
GO RER and SmartTrack are different plans... Or that's at least what Tory wants us to believe.

What frequencies has Tory set for his SmartTrack plan? I can't find any reference to 15 min or less.
Click to expand...

So you're telling me that Tory's plan would result in GO RER on two tracks, running EMUs, both ways all day at 15 min frequencies. Then, right beside that transit line, we'd have SmartTrack, running EMUs both ways all day at 15 min frequencies? That would make no sense at all.

No, obviously his plan is simply to use what is already happening with GO RER. That way, no matter what happens, something like SmartTrack will likely inevitably happen because the province was planning to do it anyways, and the work for what he calls "SmartTrack" is already in progress.

The Tory plan is based on GO RER. The reason they said 15 min frequencies is because GO RER is 15 min frequencies. It's not some duplicate separate service right beside GO RER, it IS GO RER, but with TTC fare.

Tory nor his campaign has not thought much about frequencies. They will use whatever frequencies GO RER uses because it is GO RER lol.
 
ehlow said:
My interpretation of SmartTrack is that it takes the two tracks from GO and gives it to the TTC. I don't think it makes any sense nor is it feasible to have both GO RER and SmartTrack as separate services. SmartTrack, if it happens, will be GO RER with TTC fares and extra stops. It's can't be an additional transit line running alongside GO RER, that would make no sense at all.
Click to expand...

I just hope that if Tory is elected, he'll throw out his ridiculous plan and focus on ensuring that our six new RER rapid transit lines have sufficient stations within Toronto.
 
ehlow said:
So you're telling me that Tory's plan would result in GO RER on two tracks, running EMUs, both ways all day at 15 min frequencies. Then, right beside that transit line, we'd have SmartTrack, running EMUs both ways all day at 15 min frequencies? That would make no sense at all.
Click to expand...

No, that's not what I'm saying at all because SmartTrack is never getting built. But in a hypothetical fairytale land where SmartTrack would have a chance in hell of getting built, yes, SmartTrack would have to be on a separate track from RER.

No, obviously his plan is simply to use what is already happening with GO RER
Click to expand...

Well, you know, the man could just say that rather than publishing this nonsensical transit plan.
 
ehlow said:
So you're telling me that Tory's plan would result in GO RER on two tracks, running EMUs, both ways all day at 15 min frequencies. Then, right beside that transit line, we'd have SmartTrack, running EMUs both ways all day at 15 min frequencies? That would make no sense at all.

No, obviously his plan is simply to use what is already happening with GO RER. That way, no matter what happens, something like SmartTrack will likely inevitably happen because the province was planning to do it anyways, and the work for what he calls "SmartTrack" is already in progress.

The Tory plan is based on GO RER. The reason they said 15 min frequencies is because GO RER is 15 min frequencies. It's not some duplicate separate service right beside GO RER, it IS GO RER, but with TTC fare.

Tory nor his campaign has not thought much about frequencies. They will use whatever frequencies GO RER uses because it is GO RER lol.
Click to expand...

Well let's start by figuring out the ways in which SmartTrack could potentially be different from GO RER:

1) More stations within Toronto. Not hard at all for GO RER to incorporate that, and they may already be doing that.

2) Using a TTC fare. Well we know Metrolinx is already working on a fare integration plan, so that point is probably going to happen anyway.

3) The section along Eglinton West. As many has pointed out, that's just plain dumb. No need for Metrolinx to roll that into anything except a paper shredder.

4) Potentially run by the TTC. Again, just plain dumb.

So we have two things that GO/Metrolinx is already working on, and two things they would never work on or never agree to. But if #1 and #2 happen, even if it's the SmartTrack plan that really pushes them, then I'd be all for it.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
I just hope that if Tory is elected, he'll throw out his ridiculous plan and focus on ensuring that our six new RER rapid transit lines have sufficient stations within Toronto.
Click to expand...

I think what would happen is he'll try to convince Metrolinx to:

A. Prioritize Georgetown and Stouffville ahead of the Lakeshore lines
B. Possibly join the two with through-running trains

Now you have something very much like SmartTrack. Next steps:

C. Try to make it TTC fare with free transfers to TTC, add it to the TTC map. This costs operating dollars but isn't a major physical change.

Almost there..

D. Add stations within Toronto

Now the only difference with his original SmartTrack map is the Eglinton section. I think having it go to the airport instead and replace UPX is probably be the best choice.

At each step the GO RER is transformed closer to SmartTrack. Notice that not much needs to happen for him to claim that he has "built SmartTrack", even just the first 2 is probably enough for him to claim that next election.
 
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