Voltz
Senior Member
I still keep finding new reasons to rue the day the day P3 transit projects were dumped on us.
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Finch West Line 6 LRT
- Thread starter Monarch Butterfly
- Start date
KhalilHeron
Active Member
OMFG the TTC has had limited TSP for decades and Waterloo Region is literally less than 100km away... are they actually trying to claim they dont think TSP is used anywhere in north america??? The ttc board has no idea what goes on in their own organization
yrt+viva=1system
Senior Member
Fire all those TTC staff!! "Believe??" Really now?
Imbeciles. They clearly do not know what they are doing. They could've also talked to York Region about TSP on the VIVA bus ways.
Even better yet! I just Googled which places in North America uses TSP:
PAGE 57:
https://nacto.org/wp-content/uploads/transit_signal_priority_handbook_smith.pdf
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ZEBuilder
Active Member
As someone from KW it's hilarious sitting and watching this all unfold as people have for years complained about the ION being "slow", yet now that Finch is up and running the same people are seemingly using it as the gold standard.
txlseries4
Active Member
I know you're moving fast taking down dialogue but this is misrepresenting the conversations going on...
No, this isn't what was said. Staff said the aggressive form of TSP -- giving transit the signal ahead of left turning vehicles -- would be new to North America. Not that TSP entirely isn't used elsewhere.
The exact quote was, "I believe this sort of aggressive form of TSP is being used in other places in Europe, but I'm not as familiar with it being used elsewhere in North America."
And in case people think the staff indicated they would love to talk to peers, and haven't, the answer was that they have engaged in discussions and would love to visit those places (Vienna, Prague), and Myers put direct pressure on the CEO to authorize trips to those places.
yrt+viva=1system
Senior Member
I'm almost certain they didn't not even bring it up. They are bringing it up now that people are breathing down their neck.
KhalilHeron
Active Member
Thanks for the clarification.
I do believe ION vehicles get a green light before left turns at certain intersections but not positive
eglinton1661
New Member
Fair enough. Here's the full transcript:
Myers: when we say, you know, we're now testing aggressive transit signal priority. This is not something new to the rest of the world.
TTC: Correct.
Myers: It's just new to Toronto
TTC: through the chair. It is actually, it is actually relatively new, I believe this sort of aggressive TSP has been used in other places Europe, but I'm not as familiar with it being used elsewhere in North America, we would be, again, a bit of a pioneer, I think, in North America.
Myers: So it's new to North America, but it's not new to Europe, correct?
TTC: Correct. Or Asia, yeah.
Myers: So as we sort of go forward and try to figure out the right steps, are we talking to those other transit systems who have been operating these types of LRT lines with this type of aggressive transit signal priority. Are we talking to them? Are we having conversation? And if so, which ones are we talking to you?
TTC: through you chair, yes. Just recently with the UITP light rail committee in Toronto, we had a opportunity to connect with a lot of our peers and exchange contact information. And so that includes folks in Vienna, in Prague, in London, like all the places out that way that are part of UITP.
Myers: And will you be going to those cities to actually see how this works, see like, actually see how this is actually rolling out and works, and taking those learnings back? It's one thing to like, talk about things over the phone. There's nothing to go actually see how it works and get those questions asked.
TTC: Sure, yeah, I'm looking at the bosses. [chuckles]. Sure we would love to
Myers: But in all seriousness, I think it's important that we actually have a better understanding about how this actually works in practice, and sure that same bumps when they rolled this out, which perhaps we could avoid as we move forward, as there's now a lot of pressure and eyes on the TTC, the City of Toronto, Metrolinx, in terms of how we actually get these things moving forward. I'm also a bit surprised from the response from Commissioner Osborne in terms of like, there's no noticeable improvement in the in the end to end run times we've just spent half billion dollars.
JasonParis
Moderator
There are needs for both regional and more municipal maps. It doesn't need to be either/or.
urbanclient
Active Member
This is some bulls***. Either it's not working as intended or, in practice, not working at all. See @reaperexpress 's very insightful post as to why TSP is so bad for streetcars even though it's technically "turned on" for ~300 intersections.
These clowns at the TTC sound like they've never stepped foot outside the Province, much less own a passport or left the country... I don't think they even know how transit signal priority works in Toronto like @reaperexpress , much less elsewhere in North America, the Americas, Europe, or Asia...
Finch West Line 6 LRT
Who runs this city’s mundane traffic signals, Metrolinx or City Hall? I hope you can understand the confusion regarding who is responsible for the lack of strong active signal priority, (emphasis mine): "Supplementary Report: Congestion Management Plan - 2025 Update Date: April 22, 2025...
jordanmkasla2009
Active Member
ION doesn't have the aggressive form of transit priority that is being considered here. There are still instances where the trains wait for left-turning vehicles but they do modify cycle times quite a bit more aggressively than in Toronto.
eglinton1661
New Member
Councillor Saxe: what is the status of improving the Spadina streetcar? When will we start seeing real improvements there?
TTC staff: we believe we should start to have that online by early February at this point in time
Saxe: how much will that improve travel time?
TTC staff: there's gonna be changes to the surrounding traffic time so it's still a little early... the intent is to report in the congestion management report early next year
Saxe: are you thinking about eliminating left turns?
TTC staff: we're looking at parking changes. we can certainly look at impact of left turns but would require larger study than what we're doing
Saxe: two stage pedestrian crossings in Spadina? have you considered staggered crossings?
TTC staff: we're looking at that
Saxe: I understand that Kitchener has true TSP. Have you reviewed their system?
TTC staff: we can certainly look into that but it's always depending on what technology they use and how it varies with us
Saxe: but not something you've reviewed?
TTC staff: not yet
TTC staff: we believe we should start to have that online by early February at this point in time
Saxe: how much will that improve travel time?
TTC staff: there's gonna be changes to the surrounding traffic time so it's still a little early... the intent is to report in the congestion management report early next year
Saxe: are you thinking about eliminating left turns?
TTC staff: we're looking at parking changes. we can certainly look at impact of left turns but would require larger study than what we're doing
Saxe: two stage pedestrian crossings in Spadina? have you considered staggered crossings?
TTC staff: we're looking at that
Saxe: I understand that Kitchener has true TSP. Have you reviewed their system?
TTC staff: we can certainly look into that but it's always depending on what technology they use and how it varies with us
Saxe: but not something you've reviewed?
TTC staff: not yet
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txlseries4
Active Member
Fully appreciate these updates from the board! Just noticing people are agitated and quick to jump on things, and misunderstandings about TTC/Metrolinx are rampant
Definitely feels like one of those awful technically true answers. While they do apparently use some "basic form" of TSP, it's not good enough :/
yrt+viva=1system
Senior Member
The staff are being caught lying in the act. Plain and simple. They never had any intention to look at other places on how TSP works nor how to run a modern LRT system.
Would be gold if some asked the staff if their original intention was to run the LRT as they would have with the existing antiquated streetcar system.
Would be gold if some asked the staff if their original intention was to run the LRT as they would have with the existing antiquated streetcar system.
eglinton1661
New Member
Saxe: how similar is the transit experience on spadina to experience on dundas that don't have dedicated ROW. How much can we generalize learnings?
TTC staff: for those corridors in mixed traffic other factors are more relevant like removing parking
Saxe: do you need more authorization from the board to speed those up?
TTC staff: we do not need more authorization but we need city council approval to remove parking and that's where we get held up
Myers: can you explain relationship between frequency of stops and inability to reach higher speed?
TTC staff: we have quite a few more stops than many other cities.
Myers: has that been reviewed since we changed to the new streetcars?
TTC staff: we have in a more localized setting. we're now embarking on a more comprehensive network wide review. if the desire is faster service the recommendation will be stop removals, though we recognize those are always difficult and contentious
Myers: when the decision is made to remove a stop there's nothing actually stopping the TTC from removing it right?
TTC staff: yes but we typically consult with the local councillor and their staff. The outcome in almost all cases is do not remove our stop
Myers: is there any reason a streetcar in its own ROW should not be going faster than cars?
TTC staff: in pure theory no. however there's other factors to consider: stop spacing, TSP, folks entering our ROW.
Myers: have we looked into barriers to stop people entering our ROWs?
TTC staff: we're looking into it
TTC staff: for those corridors in mixed traffic other factors are more relevant like removing parking
Saxe: do you need more authorization from the board to speed those up?
TTC staff: we do not need more authorization but we need city council approval to remove parking and that's where we get held up
Myers: can you explain relationship between frequency of stops and inability to reach higher speed?
TTC staff: we have quite a few more stops than many other cities.
Myers: has that been reviewed since we changed to the new streetcars?
TTC staff: we have in a more localized setting. we're now embarking on a more comprehensive network wide review. if the desire is faster service the recommendation will be stop removals, though we recognize those are always difficult and contentious
Myers: when the decision is made to remove a stop there's nothing actually stopping the TTC from removing it right?
TTC staff: yes but we typically consult with the local councillor and their staff. The outcome in almost all cases is do not remove our stop
Myers: is there any reason a streetcar in its own ROW should not be going faster than cars?
TTC staff: in pure theory no. however there's other factors to consider: stop spacing, TSP, folks entering our ROW.
Myers: have we looked into barriers to stop people entering our ROWs?
TTC staff: we're looking into it