Finch West Line 6 LRT

[urbanclient]

No, this isn't what was said. Staff said the aggressive form of TSP -- giving transit the signal ahead of left turning vehicles -- would be new to North America. Not that TSP entirely isn't used elsewhere.

Let me give you a revelation. It is NOT new to North America, these people are willfully ignorant clowns, and you should not carry water for them.

 

[urbanclient]

Thanks for the clarification.
I do believe ION vehicles get a green light before left turns at certain intersections but not positive

YES

I think we all want this, strong active signal priority. 20 seconds before the ION LRT even reaches the intersection, all other road traffic is halted.

If Waterloo can do it on Day 1 a full six years ago, why can't we? And it doesn't necessarily have to be as big as a 20 second margin. This isn't rocket science. Even if ION doesn't get priority, much less preemption at every single intersection, it is still much better than what we have so far with Line 6's clownshow.

 

[Steve X]

Let me give you a revelation. It is NOT new to North America, these people are willfully ignorant clowns, and you should not carry water for them.

They pretend they weren’t living under a rock and have an excuse to not involve TSP with a saying it’s not used here. Idiots

 

[Conrad Black]

I drove along Finch last night from Keele to Albion at rush hour. I noticed a lot of rather full buses on the route. Meanwhile the LRT vehicles were rather empty. Is the plan to continue running buses here or am I missing something?

 

[Towered]

This is some bulls***. Either it's not working as intended or, in practice, not working at all. See @reaperexpress 's very insightful post as to why TSP is so bad for streetcars even though it's technically "turned on" for ~300 intersections.



These clowns at the TTC sound like they've never stepped foot outside the Province, much less own a passport or left the country... I don't think they even know how transit signal priority works in Toronto like @reaperexpress , much less elsewhere in North America, the Americas, Europe, or Asia...

Finch West Line 6 LRT

Who runs this city’s mundane traffic signals, Metrolinx or City Hall? I hope you can understand the confusion regarding who is responsible for the lack of strong active signal priority, (emphasis mine): "Supplementary Report: Congestion Management Plan - 2025 Update Date: April 22, 2025...

urbantoronto.ca

View attachment 701996

What are the salaries of these staff members? Who will be held to account?

 

[txlseries4]

Let me give you a revelation. It is NOT new to North America, these people are willfully ignorant clowns, and you should not carry water for them.

Where in North America uses the aggressive form of transit signal priority being discussed and proposed?

I'm not carrying water for them. I'm in favour of people accurately understanding what was and wasn't said, but you seem to have a problem with that because you don't view them favourably...?

 

[NoahB]

I think this is relevant here. Someone posted on Reddit about the Line 9 tramline in the Paris area. It is exactly the same length at 10.3km. Has 19 stops. and can do the end to end trip in 32min. (scheduled at 30min)

Look in this video at how aggressively they drive the trams. There seem to be many more pedestrian and car crossings than on Finch West. Most lights switch off before the tram arrives.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Where in North America uses the aggressive form of transit signal priority being discussed and proposed?

I'm not carrying water for them. I'm in favour of people accurately understanding what was and wasn't said, but you seem to have a problem with that because you don't view them favourably...?

Why does it matter? Do it or don't - the time to talk about it was before you build the damned thing.

AoD

 

[eglinton1661]

Live updates:
- The earliest Line 6 improvements can be implemented is at the end of the "soft opening" in "early spring"

- TTC staff would need to consult with Mosaic and Metrolinx if it were to speed up the LRT because it would impact maintenance costs

- In response to question from Councillor Matlow, TTC insists that Line 6 did have TSP from day one that would extend the green light and truncate the reds. No specificity on whether this is conditional or unconditional. Says what they're looking into now is a "more aggressive" form of TSP

- Councillor Bravo asks whether giving priority to Line 6 would mean that other lines like the Jane bus would be delayed. TTC staff say yes, but that nature of transit signal prioritization is that some prioritization must happen

- TTC staff says original stated runtime for Line 6 and Line 5 are "lower than what would be possible to do." "That was developed by Metrolinx in consultation with TTC and the city... as part of the original contract." Became evident last year "or possibly earlier than that" that those run times would not be possible.

- Myers asks if there was ever a discussion about updating the public about the new run times. TTC staff says no because "this was a contractual issue and they wanted to have that discussion internally"

Want to expand on this because I think the transcript is worth seeing in full:

Saxe: why do we need to talk to Metrolinx or Mosaic about TSP? Isn't that something the city controls?

TTC staff: the city does control TSP.

Saxe: so why do we have to work with Metrolinx? why not just ask the city to do it?

TTC staff: the train operating services agreement says any changes contemplated on the LRTs require the input from metrolinx and mosaic

Saxes: including TSP? The city owns the signal.

TTC staff: but the impact of the change in the signal may impact the runtime which will cause an impact to the operations, maintenance on the various vehicles. It's not just a simple TSP, it then causes a knock on effect that needs to be reviewed by mosaic and metrolinx

Saxe: is mosaic and metrolinx in favor of making this line as fast as they said it was going to be?

TTC staff: metrolinx and mosaic have worked with city to define the service level for the train. once the train reaches a steady state there are opportunities to change it with an amendment to the contract.

Saxe: right but if people get used to the LRT being a slow dragging disappointing getting better later isn't going to reverse that reputational damage. how quickly can the city and mosaic get this line running at a speed comparable to what was advertised?

TTC staff: the change in speed is a result of the discussions that have occurred with the TTC and metrolinx to ensure there's a proper and safe operation of the vehicles. In terms of the timing to do this, what has to happen is there has to be a determination made as to what's the best speed, and what needs to happen is there needs to be a thorough review done by mosaic as the operator of the system and the TTC as the operator of the vehicles as to what speed makes sense, and then that will initiate the variation. This is not going to be a simple change to increase the speed, it doesn't work that way, it's very complicated in terms of making sure the runtime and the headways of these vehicles still meet the requirements of the contract.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I think the TSP should be done in February

 

[drum118]

I think it maybe time to do Pedestrian Scramble/Scrambled Crossing intersections where pedestrians are not allow to cross the intersection on a green for traffic, but only for them. I have seen them else where and it allows for a better flow for everyone as well more safer for pedestrians. Toronto has a few Scramble intersections, but allow pedestrians to cross in one direction of the intersection blocking traffic/transit to turn in front of them.

Regardless what may take place, you will find people having no respect to obey the rules as they only think of themselves just like a lot of drivers do.

There is always the round the block move to turn left by doing a right-right-right turn that will not work for every place, but will improve quality transit improvement.

A good priority traffic signal would allow a transit vehicle to move first, then change to allow traffic to turn with transit going back to green. At the same time, the transit green can be held longer if the stop is on the far side if that transit vehicle hits the hold section before it is to turn.

Finch is no different than Eglinton time wise getting a red 10 sections before cars do. I do find that some intersections should not be there that will require traffic to do U-turn to get back to x street as a right in and out. This will speed up quality of service.

As for buses/BRT in place of an LRT based on today ridership is false thinking as you need to be looking 30-50 years down the road. From what I see for redevelopment along the route, the fleet will have to be double with close headways. This may come an issue for Eglinton after going to 3 cars sets and how do you add space for a 4th car?? Finch has the same issue adding a 2nd car once service gets down to 90 seconds.

 

[urbanclient]

I think this is relevant here. Someone posted on Reddit about the Line 9 tramline in the Paris area. It is exactly the same length at 10.3km. Has 19 stops. and can do the end to end trip in 32min. (scheduled at 30min)

Look in this video at how aggressively they drive the trams. There seem to be many more pedestrian and car crossings than on Finch West. Most lights switch off before the tram arrives.

Am I tripping or does this prove that signal priority and low dwell times are key. Aggressive acceleration and deceleration help too, especially to get up to higher top and average moving speeds. My earlier hypotheticals of 20 second door open chime to vehicle moving dwell times (22 sec stop and go dwell time) were beaten at 6:12 to 6:32. The tram comes to a complete stop and leaves in exactly 20 seconds, which is 2 seconds faster than 22. Where are the people at, saying 20 second dwell times/door open times were two short for trams? *cough* @innsertnamehere

The fact that if you [...] make dwell times ridiculously minimal (ignoring how trams have smaller doors than Line 1 and simply take longer to unload/load passengers) and still get a 34 minute travel time is indicative of a problem. With the tram barely stopping at stops and never stopping at red lights your hypothetical scenario still delivers a travel time over 50% longer than driving with stoplights and an average speed below 25km/h.

And as an FYI, those types of travel time savings are simply not realistic. Dwell times and red light time can definitely be reduced, but you aren't going to save 18 minutes off those. Even a very strong transit priority signaling system is still going to have some level of dwell time for vehicles as lights have minimum cycle lengths that have to be met. Similarly, not every stop is going to be able to get it's doors closed in 20 seconds. Maybe the quieter ones with minimal passengers, but stations like Kipling and Jane are just going to take longer.

*Emphasis mine

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

I think this is relevant here. Someone posted on Reddit about the Line 9 tramline in the Paris area. It is exactly the same length at 10.3km. Has 19 stops. and can do the end to end trip in 32min. (scheduled at 30min)

Look in this video at how aggressively they drive the trams. There seem to be many more pedestrian and car crossings than on Finch West. Most lights switch off before the tram arrives.

Note the lack of verbal signage in the video. No signs in French (nor English, nor German, nor Italian, etc.) that say "TRAM SIGNAL". Just white bars for the tram.

 

[crs1026]

TTC: through the chair. It is actually, it is actually relatively new, I believe this sort of aggressive TSP has been used in other places Europe, but I'm not as familiar with it being used elsewhere in North America, we would be, again, a bit of a pioneer, I think, in North America.

Myers: So it's new to North America, but it's not new to Europe, correct?

TTC: Correct. Or Asia, yeah.

Funny how a quick google search reveals all the places in North America where it is already used.

Portland, Denver, Boston for instance.

Having seen it working in Portland a decade ago - well, they have it pretty much figured out.

Is this "playing dumb" ? Does TTC really not know?

- Paul

 

[Steve X]

Where in North America uses the aggressive form of transit signal priority being discussed and proposed?

I'm not carrying water for them. I'm in favour of people accurately understanding what was and wasn't said, but you seem to have a problem with that because you don't view them favourably...?

You can look up Houston and watch how efficient their system ran for 2 decades.

I do have to say left turning traffic does complicate things. It would be better if the tracks are on its own corridor like ION than in the middle of a major roadway.