Roads: Keep the Gardiner, fix it, or get rid of it? (2005-2014)

[bleu]

Oh your so right, it's just that those pesky family obligations keep getting in the way. They love their big yard, it has nothing to do with the fact their parents (and built in baby sitters live in the 'hood. - that couldn't be it.)

Ya, you're right, it has nothing to do with family and the fact they have better schools in the 'burbs, it's just stone cold commute times that matter. Strangers raising your kids is always better then relatives......ahem.......

Some people like living in shoe boxes in the sky, some don't. Period.

there are better schools in the suburbs precisely because families/middle class people move to the suburbs.
Do you think in New York, Paris, Tokyo and London, good schools are all located in suburbs 20 km away from the core?

You have it all backwards.
This shoebox kind of name is getting boring. A family of four can live comfortable in a 1000sf condo. It is by no means shoeboxes. The entire world outside North America is living in shoeboxes, I suppose.

It is however perfectly fine to want to live in large suburban houses. on the other hand, it is a life choice and don't come back and complain commute is too long because you chose it.

 

[Dan416]

Is it just me or does bleu sound hauntingly familiar with the condascending tone about families outside North America?

 

[ssiguy2]

there are better schools in the suburbs precisely because families/middle class people move to the suburbs.
Do you think in New York, Paris, Tokyo and London, good schools are all located in suburbs 20 km away from the core?

You have it all backwards.
This shoebox kind of name is getting boring. A family of four can live comfortable in a 1000sf condo. It is by no means shoeboxes. The entire world outside North America is living in shoeboxes, I suppose.

It is however perfectly fine to want to live in large suburban houses. on the other hand, it is a life choice and don't come back and complain commute is too long because you chose it.

I don't suppose it has occurred to you that in most families BOTH parents work? By moving closer to one job may result in moving further away from the other. We also no longer live in a 1960s job-for-life world, people change jobs {whether wanting to or not} all the time.

Anyway, back to the Gardiner. I don't think tearing down the western section of the highway will ever happen in our life times but I think the eastern section {east of roughly Church/Jervis} is inevitable. As for waiting 15 years...........why would you spend hundreds of millions just to keep a highway up for 15 years?

The whole Gardiner debate exemplifies what happens when you don't have long term transportation policy. The entire Waterfront & CityPlace developments should not have taken place without having a clear vision of the Gardiner first. Even if they wanted {or had the money to} tunnel to western approach, there is no land to do it. This lack of foresight has also left the city few options.

 

[PinkLucy]

Is it just me or does bleu sound hauntingly familiar with the condascending tone about families outside North America?

He does sound familiar. I've been trying to put my finger on who it is he reminds me of.

 

[jaycola]

reduce commute time?
let me suggest again for the 100th time, live closer to work. works 100 times more effective than expecting a great subway/highway system.
yeah, you will say many people can't etc, the truth is, they can't let go their big detached house with a deck a yard all that sort of suburban features.

My wife works downtown and I work in York Region, maybe we should keep 2 residences? Or maybe it's just better to divorce so our commute times could be better?

What happens when someone loses their job or is transferred to a new location? It can be awfully expensive to move, what with land transfer taxes, commissions and movers...

We don't live in a world where people can expect to have one job for their entire working career nor can we expect that the Husband will be off to work while the wife will stay home.

Your suggestion only works in fantasy...If you've suggested it before 100 times, I suggest you've suggested it enough...

 

[sixrings]

My wife works downtown and I work in York Region, maybe we should keep 2 residences? Or maybe it's just better to divorce so our commute times could be better?

What happens when someone loses their job or is transferred to a new location? It can be awfully expensive to move, what with land transfer taxes, commissions and movers...

We don't live in a world where people can expect to have one job for their entire working career nor can we expect that the Husband will be off to work while the wife will stay home.

Your suggestion only works in fantasy...If you've suggested it before 100 times, I suggest you've suggested it enough...

In all seriousness I love my wife but I would love his and her houses... thanks for the idea.

 

[junior43]

It is however perfectly fine to want to live in large suburban houses. on the other hand, it is a life choice and don't come back and complain commute is too long because you chose it.

Can't wait for Chow to say that on the campaign trail when she's dicussing why she supports getting rid of the Gardiner. That'll turn the suburbs to her side for sure........

Last election was 'subways! subways! subways!' This one will be 'save the Gardiner', or the classic, 'war on the car'. Unfortunately, this whole Gardiner thing is setting up perfectly for Ford and the next election.

 

[BrenWilson]

My wife works downtown and I work in York Region, maybe we should keep 2 residences? Or maybe it's just better to divorce so our commute times could be better?

What happens when someone loses their job or is transferred to a new location? It can be awfully expensive to move, what with land transfer taxes, commissions and movers...

We don't live in a world where people can expect to have one job for their entire working career nor can we expect that the Husband will be off to work while the wife will stay home.

Your suggestion only works in fantasy...If you've suggested it before 100 times, I suggest you've suggested it enough...

And are there no equivalent jobs for you in Toronto? Do you live downtown and you commute out, or do you live in the suburbs and your wife commutes in? I'm not trying to judge, just consider that you alone have the power to make your commute/job situation/life more efficient. Is moving to a better (read as: more efficient) location more expensive than staying with a longer (more expensive) commute?

I understand that many factors converged in the post-war years to result in suburbia and long commutes, and that these factors still exist today. Cheaper home ownership, automobile ownership, etc. But at some point we have to realize that this way of life is unsustainable, expensive and it isn't getting cheaper. Simply waiting around for someone else (the government) to improve your situation while you stick with the status quo isn't a solution.

I don't want to judge specific situations, so please don't take this as an assault on your particular life choices. What I want is people to look at the grand picture and understand it, and hopefully move towards a solution.

 

[dowlingm]

The situation in Boston is somewhat different from Toronto - a significant amount of traffic through the Central Artery is through traffic. That's not the case here.

AoD

Is the restarted EA likely to have origin/destination analysis?

 

[nfitz]

He does sound familiar. I've been trying to put my finger on who it is he reminds me of.

I was just thinking the same thing about junior43 ...

 

[nfitz]

Can't wait for Chow to say that on the campaign trail when she's dicussing why she supports getting rid of the Gardiner. That'll turn the suburbs to her side for sure.......

I don't think any major politician out there is seriously discussing eliminating the entire Gardiner at this point. Isn't all that's on the table that the last ramp eastbound would be Jarvis, and southbound DVP would channel most of it's traffic to Adelaide/Richmond and the rest would take the Don Roadway to Lakeshore (and presumably turn right, drive a few blocks, and get on the end of the Gardiner, if that's what they really want to do.

You know, that bit of Gardiner that is 4 lanes wide, but rarely congested.

 

[junior43]

I was just thinking the same thing about junior43 ...

Not sure what you mean. This is my first and only account here.

 

[kEiThZ]

Can't wait for Chow to say that on the campaign trail when she's dicussing why she supports getting rid of the Gardiner. That'll turn the suburbs to her side for sure........

Last election was 'subways! subways! subways!' This one will be 'save the Gardiner', or the classic, 'war on the car'. Unfortunately, this whole Gardiner thing is setting up perfectly for Ford and the next election.

Exactly. I called it last time. And I'll say that if the left jumps on the "Takedown the Gardiner" bandwagon, they are sunk. Simply because they won't be offering what most drivers would consider to be a viable alternative.

I would say the left should ge proactive and get out ahead of the issue. Propose to bury the Gardiner and have that paid for with tolls. The choice will then be quite simple. Tear down the Gardiner and live with the roads for free or pay to replace it.

The plus side with this option is that we could piggyback on the project and bury the tracks. And proposing a Gardiner replacement would also undoubtedly attract federal and provincial funding.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Is the restarted EA likely to have origin/destination analysis?

Not sure, maybe? According to the Terms of Reference for the EA (p. 37 pdf)
http://www.waterfrontoronto.ca/expl...expressway/the_gardiner_ea_terms_of_reference

The following example criteria might be used for the Transportation "lens"
• Compare ability to accommodate local and through travel needs
• Compare level of connectivity between the DVP and the Gardiner Expressway
• Compare and measure north-south pedestrian movement

These will probably necessitate some kind of origin/destination analysis.

AoD

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

keithz:

That is if anyone bites that Gardiner bait - frankly I'd rather focus all the attention on the transit funding fight instead. We will go through the EA, it doesn't mean we have to tear down anything, much less decide to tear down anything two years from now.

AoD