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Roads: Keep the Gardiner, fix it, or get rid of it? (2005-2014)

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pman said:
I wonder if that's necessarily the case. An unexpected one-off event isn't enough to make people change their travel behaviour. For example, I drive to work downtown and didn't know the DVP was closed until I was in a traffic jam. However, if I knew traffic was going to be that bad every day then I'd change my mode of travel and take the TTC. I suspect that if the Gardiner were taken down people would adapt and a lot would switch to the TTC or GO Transit.
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Except that downtown-bound TTC subways and most of GO Transit trains are filled to the brim during the morning rush, and cannot take any more riders.

If DRL opens before that section of Gardiner closes, that might be a suitable solution. But not one way around.
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
Council has already decided to repair the western section of the Gardiner. There has never been any "promise" to build a new Gardiner above the railway, and if it by chance make it to an EA, it would have been shot down with a big fat no for technical and non-technical reasons.

AoD
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Oops, I do not know how I wrote "promise". I think I planned to type "promising idea", but there was a misconnection between my brain and fingers.

I think it is more technically feasible than a tunnel under the existing Gardiner.
 
Actually it is less technically feasible - to build atop the railway corridor will require engineering work that will create significant conflicts with the existing tracks, not to mention the issue of having to locate on/off ramps where there currently aren't any. Not to mention - to build atop the Union Station train shed meant that the roadway will have to be significantly higher than the existing Gardiner. And I haven't even gotten to the non-technical issue - i.e. the city has no say over the tracks - unlike the Gardiner ROW.

At this point, I think a improved rebuild of the expressway - with the goal of simplifying the on-off ramps and ameliorate the mess at ground level might be the best bet for the western section.

AoD
 
pman said:
I wonder if that's necessarily the case. An unexpected one-off event isn't enough to make people change their travel behaviour. For example, I drive to work downtown and didn't know the DVP was closed until I was in a traffic jam. However, if I knew traffic was going to be that bad every day then I'd change my mode of travel and take the TTC. I suspect that if the Gardiner were taken down people would adapt and a lot would switch to the TTC or GO Transit.
Click to expand...

When the DVP or Gardiner are closed for construction on weekends, the traffic on parallel roads is much worse than normal, despite advance warning.
 
The EA has never been about tearing down the Gardiner and doing nothing else. They have made it clear that they are looking at ways of handling the traffic that would not be so expensive to maintain, such an obstacle, and such an eyesore.

The fantasy proposal of a viaduct above the railway tracks is best forgotten. It would be hideously expensive to build and maintain, and it would depend on on/off ramps that make the current ones look pretty by comparison. I think I recall a quarter-mile ramp cutting across CityPlace. Someone might want to explain just how you'd get that built.
 
CapitalSeven said:
The EA has never been about tearing down the Gardiner and doing nothing else. They have made it clear that they are looking at ways of handling the traffic that would not be so expensive to maintain, such an obstacle, and such an eyesore.
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Doing something else seems to be creating a grand boulevard for the lakeshore. My quick calculation is that the Gardiner is 4 to 6 lanes - multiply by 2 for the capacity of a freeway to a signalized road, and then add 6 lanes for the Lakeshore plus add 2 left turn lanes and one right turn lane. This gives a "new" lakeshore that is 17 to 21 lanes across. I am guessing that they will conclude that the eastern Gardiner can not be removed.
 
CapitalSeven said:
The fantasy proposal of a viaduct above the railway tracks is best forgotten. It would be hideously expensive to build and maintain, and it would depend on on/off ramps that make the current ones look pretty by comparison. I think I recall a quarter-mile ramp cutting across CityPlace. Someone might want to explain just how you'd get that built.
Click to expand...

As for the viaduct plan - it is a fantasy proposal, just as the tunnel under the Gardiner, tunnel through the Harbour, and demolition of the existing elevated portions. I do not know how bad the existing elevated portions are, but I would guess that the most likely scenario is that the Gardiner is reduced by two lanes in each direction and the superstructure (beams and deck) is "replaced" in 3 or 4 stages.
 
andrewpmk said:
When the DVP or Gardiner are closed for construction on weekends, the traffic on parallel roads is much worse than normal, despite advance warning.
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Similarly for the Ride for Heart today, Lake Shore was pretty badly congested by noon or so. There is a similar effect when Lake Shore is closed for marathons, the Honda Indy, Caribana etc. There ought to be a total ban on closing any of the main roads in this city for special events, the effect on traffic congestion is totally unacceptable.
 
BurlOak said:
Doing something else seems to be creating a grand boulevard for the lakeshore. My quick calculation is that the Gardiner is 4 to 6 lanes - multiply by 2 for the capacity of a freeway to a signalized road, and then add 6 lanes for the Lakeshore plus add 2 left turn lanes and one right turn lane. This gives a "new" lakeshore that is 17 to 21 lanes across. I am guessing that they will conclude that the eastern Gardiner can not be removed.
Click to expand...

You already loaded it up with your presumption of a 2x multiplier for the signalized road - the capacity is already limited at rush by other factors. Earlier simulations have indicated that an 8 lane boulevard with expanded Eastern-Richmond/Adelaide onramps can handle the loads.

As for the viaduct plan - it is a fantasy proposal, just as the tunnel under the Gardiner, tunnel through the Harbour, and demolition of the existing elevated portions. I do not know how bad the existing elevated portions are, but I would guess that the most likely scenario is that the Gardiner is reduced by two lanes in each direction and the superstructure (beams and deck) is "replaced" in 3 or 4 stages.
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Tunneling the Gardiner is an expensive but technically more sound proposal than the viaduct fantasy. The decking of the elevated expressway will have to be replaced in stages, at a total cost of ~600M. Check the city staff report posted in previous pages for details.

AoD
 
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andrewpmk:

Similarly for the Ride for Heart today, Lake Shore was pretty badly congested by noon or so. There is a similar effect when Lake Shore is closed for marathons, the Honda Indy, Caribana etc. There ought to be a total ban on closing any of the main roads in this city for special events, the effect on traffic congestion is totally unacceptable.
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For people living where, driving to where? There ought to be a total ban on out of towners complaining about congestion in the city when they are helping to suck up road capacity. Congestion is a facet of a big city - deal with it.

AoD
 
Cities where built for WHO??

Are we building cities for the car or people and if so who comes first??

Why??
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
andrewpmk:

For people living where, driving to where? There ought to be a total ban on out of towners complaining about congestion in the city when they are helping to suck up road capacity. Congestion is a facet of a big city - deal with it.

AoD
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What good does it do closing all of the DVP and most of the Gardiner for a large part of Sunday? It just causes congestion on alternative routes. Many people have to get around the city (not just going downtown) for whatever reason on Sunday morning and early afternoon, because they work on Sunday for instance, and the alternatives are pathetic (the subway, the streetcars, the hourly GO train on the Lakeshore line). Closing the DVP/Gardiner totally disrupts the GO bus system.
 
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