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2022/24 Russian-Ukrainian War

kEiThZ said:
I'm really concerned that the US and certain European partners are purposely being stingy on lethal aid, to force Ukraine to the negotiating table. Pessimistic internal assessments aren't helping. They might be fuelling self-fulfilling prophesies. I'm reminded of February last year where nobody wanted to give Ukraine any real weaponry because everyone thought Ukraine's government would fall within days, and instead were trying to go down the path of pushing a long insurgency on them. We need to help them fight this war as they want, with the maximum effort they can muster.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1645550024628092928
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If the US and NATO are actually serious when they say they want the war to end as quickly as possible, and that Russia cannot be allowed to win, then they need to supply Ukraine with absolutely everything necessary to achieve exactly that. Hundreds more tanks, jets, long range artillery (and go ahead, hit strategic targets actually on Russian soil), whatever will push the bastards out with haste. Take them to the woodshed for their vile, barbaric actions. It's not complicated. And no, Russia's concerns or predictably aggressive statements should not be catered to in any way whatsoever. The word "negotiations" should not even be mentioned as long as there is a single Russian orc still on Ukrainian soil. I have absolutely no illusions about this whatsoever. In fact, I'd go a step further - I truly don't believe relations with Russia can normalize with the West until there is a regime change in Moscow. The West has appeased that dump for nearly 80 years and they've never been made to feel consequences for their multiple transgressions during that time. Now is the opportunity to finally make them pay up.
 
I see two major issues.

1) We (the West) have a hard time recognizing that the Russians don't share our values. They are straight up closer to 40s era Nazi Germany than anything resembling a modern democracy. They are actually worse than North Korea in many ways. At least the DPRK doesn't entertain substantial imperialist and colonialist ambitions.

2) Western guilt leading to moral equivocation and cowardice. We screwed up in Iraq (Afghanistan is debatable). And ever since then, Western powers constantly avoid confrontation for fear of entanglement and escalation. There's also a certain guilt over our past attempt to impose Western morality on the Middle East. And so, what the West sees as righteous restraint, Russia and China see as weakness and cowardice to exploit. Ukrainians are paying with their lives for our guilty conscience. This isn't my own out there theory. Behold a former French ambassador to the US and the UN implying we should feel guilty and should restrict our aid to Ukraine accordingly:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1646046374213955586

I suspect, deep down, these people actually think the US is a bigger threat than Russia or China. They can't get past all the rhetoric about the evils of American imperialism, to see Chinese and Russian imperialism.
 
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kEiThZ said:
Some more context to the above. The French are once again being a stick in the mud just because of reflexive anti-Americanism. This time, Eastern Europeans are getting fed up.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1646117644490162177


www.politico.eu

Europe’s eastern half claps back at Macron: We need the US

The French president’s comments to POLITICO about not being drawn into a US-China conflict rattled easterners who favor closer ties with the Americans.
www.politico.eu www.politico.eu
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Though honestly they *like* to appear independent (as a function of their internal politics and vestigial grandeur as a colonial empire) - but were the first to have a secret pact with NATO for the moment when things turn south. I mean, they just needed to be reminded who came to save their bacon in both First and Second World War.

AoD
 
Towered said:
The US might not be perfect, but I'll take their "imperfect" 100 times out of 100 over the alternative - a world dominated by China (or in the past, Russia/Soviet Union). That would be a true nightmare.
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Agreed. But honestly there's a lot of Western progressives and conservative isolationists who don't believe that. They might say they are against a Chinese and Russian dominated world order. But their actions say otherwise.

You can't say you believe in liberal democracy and then both not practice it at home and do nothing (or the absolute minimum) to defend it, at home and abroad. Our adversaries are not wrong in perceiving weakness when actions don't match rhetoric.
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
Though honestly they *like* to appear independent (as a function of their internal politics and vestigial grandeur as a colonial empire) - but were the first to have a secret pact with NATO for the moment when things turn south. I mean, they just needed to be reminded who came to save their bacon in both First and Second World War.

AoD
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I think France has long thought of itself as beacon of democracy in Europe and the leading European nation. They rail against American (or perhaps anything English-based) dominance in continental Europe and would like everyone to believe they can lead the solution to this problem. They have always been very Franco-centric in their defence policy.
 
DSC said:
ALL countries are 'insert-country-name-here'-centric on defence. Some do, however, realise that it is probably better/cheaper to cooperate with others.
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For sure, but not to the same degree. Much of their defence production is domestic, and good on them for it, but it does have interoperability implications and no doubt has a financial penalty (which they are obviously willing to pay). They've been in - then out - then back in NATO. When they are in, I don't know how well they play with others in the sandbox.
 
France may think itself a leader in Europe. Very clear that Eastern Europe doesn't see France that way, after Macron's perpetual push for appeasement of Russia. Poland is going to be carrying the flag for ex-Communist states. And none of these countries will ever accede to any common policy put forward by Germany or France, after this war. What is remarkable to me is that the Americans are still trying to treat the French and Germans as leaders.
 
lenaitch said:
I think France has long thought of itself as beacon of democracy in Europe and the leading European nation. They rail against American (or perhaps anything English-based) dominance in continental Europe and would like everyone to believe they can lead the solution to this problem. They have always been very Franco-centric in their defence policy.
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They should know - they are onto their 5th Republic.

AoD
 
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