Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[cplchanb]

Just saw this on Siemens Mobility’s Facebook page. It’s evidently a standalone order.
View attachment 445523

interesting that they are able to get a decent production slot. isnt there a huge backorder for the chargers and ventures?

 

[crs1026]

I'm gobsmacked, but this is so much better a strategy than all the silly notions about buying old museum-worthy hand-me-down rolling stock from whomever.

I'm impressed.

- Paul

 

[SaugeenJunction]

interesting that they are able to get a decent production slot. isnt there a huge backorder for the chargers and ventures?

We don’t know what Charger model this is, but it’s a safe bet it is the SCV-42 variant, the same VIA ordered. I’d bet Siemens will just keep the VIA production line running a bit longer, and make 35 instead of 32 trainsets. That lets them squeeze in another customer and keeps the Sacramento plant chugging along efficiently.

 

[micheal_can]

Forget faster than driving, it's not even faster than the current ONTC bus. This is why the business case is looking at an overnight service.

From page 27 of the business case:
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During the daytime, the train would provide little improvement over an existing express bus. But for overnight trips speed is less important since you'd want to sleep for 8 hours anyway. Instead, comfort becomes more important, which is somewhere the train has a big advantage since its larger size makes it practical to provide much more space per passenger.

Ideally, they should be offering some sleeping accommodations such as beds or at least lie-flat seats, which would attract some customers who would be dissuaded by spending the night in a chair, and can afford a higher ticket price. But I'm not sure how much sleeping accommodations they are actually planning, if any, given that the fleet they're purchasing only has 3 single-deck coaches per train.

Roughly 10 hours to do an 8 hour drive?
Look out your window. Imagine heading to Toronto from Timmins today. 2 extra hours vs who knows how long.due to the winter conditions. For some, it would not matter. For others, it will work well.

I'm gobsmacked, but this is so much better a strategy than all the silly notions about buying old museum-worthy hand-me-down rolling stock from whomever.

I'm impressed.

- Paul

I was wondering what they were going to use. While it would be nice to see their old equipment rolling again, having new stuff is even better.

We don’t know what Charger model this is, but it’s a safe bet it is the SCV-42 variant, the same VIA ordered. I’d bet Siemens will just keep the VIA production line running a bit longer, and make 35 instead of 32 trainsets. That lets them squeeze in another customer and keeps the Sacramento plant chugging along efficiently.

This also means reliability will already be known as they have been doing testing of that already on Via.

 

[Voltz]

For an overnight train, I would have liked to see something like lie-flat business class pods that are on airlines.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

For an overnight train, I would have liked to see something like lie-flat business class pods that are on airlines.

Not an overnight train. Departures from both Toronto Union and Timmons/Cochrane in the AM, arriving at their final destination about 10 hours later.

 

[micheal_can]

Not an overnight train. Departures from both Toronto Union and Timmons/Cochrane in the AM, arriving at their final destination about 10 hours later.

They will be leaving Timmins around midnight. That is an overnight train.

 

[Urban Sky]

I rarely agree with anything written by the author of the most recent comment, but such a schedule can be found in the business case and presumably works better for residents North of the GTHA than one whoch forces them to take 3 days off for even the briefest kind of medical or business appointment in Toronto:

its surprising that theres business class

In order to be competive on anything else than price, it is essential to provide any premium alternatives to pure coach class - especially on an overnight schedule like the one outlined above.

Just saw this on Siemens Mobility’s Facebook page. It’s evidently a standalone order.
View attachment 445523

Even though the two orders are unrelated in a contractual sense, I believe it’s fair to assume that VIA’s order is the only reason why Siemens is able and willing to offer a TC-compliant product for such a small order size…

 

[innsertnamehere]

Also the trains appear to be exactly identical to VIAs, down to interior configuration, train design, etc. VIA spent a lot of money developing a train that suits their needs within the Charger platform - 3 trainsets isn't enough to develop their own trainset like VIA did, so Ontario Northland appears to have just ordered 3 of VIA's trains on a smaller size (3 cars instead of 5).

In terms of production timing, it also appears that Siemens is producing them immediately following the VIA order. Siemens just has to keep the production line running for 3 more trains with a different paint job and they are done.

 

[reaperexpress]

In order to be competive on anything else than price, it is essential to provide any premium alternatives to pure coach class - especially on an overnight schedule like the one outlined above.

Certainly, but the question is whether this type of business class is a viable form of premium service for an overnight train. My impression is that it would be difficult to sell any upright seat as a premium offering on this train. Expecially since the business class seats are the same as the economy seats anyway, just spaced further apart.

I think the logical classes would be Economy and Sleeper, where the latter has some form of lie-flat accommodation. Indeed that's the setup you typically see on sleeper trains. For example, the ÖBB Nightjet doesn't have any Business/First Class seats, there's just second class and then the next step up is mini cabin - a sort of capsule bed.

ÖBB Nightjet Mini Cabin

VIA also doesn't have any business class on its long-distance trains, the next step up from Economy is an open berth bed.

Even though the two orders are unrelated in a contractual sense, I believe it’s fair to assume that VIA’s order is the only reason why Siemens is able and willing to offer a TC-compliant product for such a small order size…

This is my thought as well. This may also suggest that they have tentatively chosen VIA to do maintenance of the trains, as the Business Case was considering as an option. Having the same type of trains as them would certainly make that a lot easier for parts availability, expertise, etc.

 

[mind_the_gap]

I really, really like this!!!

Start out simple with common, tested (VIA) rolling stock, and if the train proves to be a success, as I hope it will, they can add an (Amtrak-style) cafe car, and maybe even adapt a coach with sleeper cabins/baggage capacity. Absolute worst case scenario, they can just sell them to VIA. Either way, this shows they’re serious about bringing back the train.

Also, is it possible to attach freight cars capable of carrying cars to these Siemens sets? That could be a successful service if un/loading facilities were constructed.

 

[Bordercollie]

I really, really like this!!!

Start out simple with common, tested (VIA) rolling stock, and if the train proves to be a success, as I hope it will, they can add an (Amtrak-style) cafe car, and maybe even adapt a coach with sleeper cabins/baggage capacity. Absolute worst case scenario, they can just sell them to VIA. Either way, this shows they’re serious about bringing back the train.

Also, is it possible to attach freight cars capable of carrying cars to these Siemens sets? That could be a successful service if un/loading facilities were constructed.

Umm the whole point is that the train is designed for push pull operation to not have to turn the train around and this is not the polar bear express. There is no need for people to bring their cars to Toronto from Timmins.

 

[ShonTron]

so its essentially a piggyback order or they just bought a few of Via's options.
its surprising that theres business class

I’m surprised too. The old Northlander set had a cafe car, similar to Amtrak, and no business class.

 

[mind_the_gap]

I can definitely see people from North Bay wanting to do a day shopping trip in Toronto in the winter using it, what wouldn’t be possible with public transit, as well as people with cottages in and around Huntsville wanting to avoid the traffic on Highway 11 in the summer. My question was whether the trains are even capable of this.

Another question about the Siemens sets as well - is it possible to take a coach from the third (spare) set and insert it into the three-cars sets, to make a 4 or even 5 car set? This would be useful during busier times.

 

[Bordercollie]

I can definitely see people from North Bay wanting to do a day shopping trip in Toronto in the winter using it, what wouldn’t be possible with public transit, as well as people with cottages in and around Huntsville wanting to avoid the traffic on Highway 11 in the summer. My question was whether the trains are even capable of this.

Another question about the Siemens sets as well - is it possible to take a coach from the third (spare) set and insert it into the three-cars sets, to make a 4 or even 5 car set? This would be useful during busier times.

They are semi fixed consist so it might be easier to just put the third set Into service or couple it together. This would probably be better if they can secure an additional track slot.
It won't be compatible with the older cars so there is no mix and match.