YRT/Viva Construction Thread (Rapidways, Terminals)

[cplchanb]

well...i guess on a more positive note, they protected themselves for probably the next 60 years....

 

[smallspy]

The Davis Drive rapidway has failed.

Frequency will be scaled back to 23 minutes in the evening. Service will end sometime around 10:30pm

Not surprised at all actually. This route is like a stub. It doesn't really go anywhere. Should have been an extension of the Viva Blue.

The only thing that has failed is York Region's willingness to improve transit service. Once again, they are pulling back on their funding - and thus YRT is left with the hard choices of where to cut to save money. Spending infrastructure money is really easy when its not yours. The ongoing operational funding is what York needs to figure out.

Making the line an extension of Blue would be less efficient than keeping it separate. Can you imagine how irregular the headways would be after a bus has been driving in traffic for an hour? By keeping Yellow as it's own little spur, it is much easier to keep the service running correctly.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[JasonParis]

It reminds me of the set-up of the streetcar bays at Yonge & Bloor, prior to the opening of the #2 line. Well, from pictures at least.

 

[Leo_Chan]

It reminds me of the set-up of the streetcar bays at Yonge & Bloor, prior to the opening of the #2 line. Well, from pictures at least.

That's a good reference. However, the Viva to Subway connection will have elevators and stairs rather than just stairs

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

The Davis Drive rapidway has failed.

Frequency will be scaled back to 23 minutes in the evening. Service will end sometime around 10:30pm

Not surprised at all actually. This route is like a stub. It doesn't really go anywhere. Should have been an extension of the Viva Blue.

There may be transit lines out there designed to achieve success or fail within their first year, I don't think the YR rapidways, which both run through and connect planned urban growth centres, necessarily fall into that category.

Is it too early to declare the rapidway on Highway 7 to be a failure? They haven't opened it to buses yet, and the subway and most of the development isn't there yet...but you can't deny the low ridership, day after day!

 

[Megaton327]

There may be transit lines out there designed to achieve success or fail within their first year, I don't think the YR rapidways, which both run through and connect planned urban growth centres, necessarily fall into that category.

Is it too early to declare the rapidway on Highway 7 to be a failure? They haven't opened it to buses yet, and the subway and most of the development isn't there yet...but you can't deny the low ridership, day after day!

I'm not sure what your point is--Highway 7 West has not opened yet, Davis has been open to buses for quite a while now.

 

[Leo_Chan]

There may be transit lines out there designed to achieve success or fail within their first year, I don't think the YR rapidways, which both run through and connect planned urban growth centres, necessarily fall into that category.

Is it too early to declare the rapidway on Highway 7 to be a failure? They haven't opened it to buses yet, and the subway and most of the development isn't there yet...but you can't deny the low ridership, day after day!

Highway 7 east is already open for a few years. However, Hwy 7 West has not opened yet. All the stations seem to be completed with the exception of VMC Station. Not sure why they can't open the completed section for now.

 

[reaperexpress]

Part of the problem with the Davis Drive rapidway is that it is used by only one of the numerous routes that travel along Davis Drive. There needs to be some overlapping YRT local service due to the long stop spacing on the rapidway, but at the very least GO Transit should be allowed to use the rapidway. It would also be nice to see YRT Route 50 (formerly GO 69 Sutton) get upgraded to a regional or quasi-BRT service, in order to make use of the new Davis Drive rapidway as well as the new Highway 404 extension, both of which fall exactly along its route.

Highway 7 east is already open for a few years. However, Hwy 7 West has not opened yet. All the stations seem to be completed with the exception of VMC Station. Not sure why they can't open the completed section for now.

Because they don't have any route to run on it. Currently Viva service turns south at Interchange Way to head down to York University, and doesn't return to Highway 7 until Keele. Therefore the new busway between Interchange Way and Keele is not particularly useful until the subway opens, allowing Viva service to continue straight along Highway 7. It's not VivaNext's fault, the subway should have been open by now.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Part of the problem with the Davis Drive rapidway is that it is used by one of the numerous routes that travel along Davis Drive. There needs to be some overlapping YRT local service due to the long stop spacing, but at the very least GO Transit should be allowed to use the rapidway. It would also be nice to see YRT Route 50 (formerly GO 69 Sutton) get upgraded to a regional or quasi-BRT service, in order to make use of the Davis Drive rapidway as well as the new Highway 404 extension, both of which fall exactly along its route.

Viva/YRT really has to open the Rapidways to more that just Viva Routes and emergency services. YRT and GO buses should be able to use them too.

Because they don't have any route to run on it. Currently Viva service turns south at Interchange Way to head down to York University, and doesn't return to Highway 7 until Keele. Therefore the new busway between Interchange Way and Keele is not particularly useful until the subway opens, allowing Viva service to continue straight along Highway 7. It's not VivaNext's fault, the subway should have been open by now.

They could launch the Viva Orange's rerouted route partially and keep a branch of the current route.

 

[reaperexpress]

Viva/YRT really has to open the Rapidways to more that just Viva Routes and emergency services. YRT and GO buses should be able to use them too.

I emailed them about a similar issue shortly before the Hwy 7 East rapidway opened:

I said:

Why is Route 1 - Highway 7 not scheduled to use the section of rapidway between Bayview and Hwy 400? With the new Viva stop opening at Chalmers Road, the only Route 1 stops skipped by the rapidway are Saddle Creek and Pond Drive.

Pond Drive does not even exist in the westbound direction, so it clearly is not very important. Rerouting to the Rapidway would obviously improve speed and reliability for Route 1, but there are other benefits as well. Consolidating all transit service onto the Rapidway would improve the effective frequency of service along the corridor. While Viva routes are faster than Route 1, the difference is not great enough that Viva is always the fastest route for trips along the corridor, especially off-peak when Viva service is less frequent. With separate stops, riders must decide in advance whether they would like to take YRT or Viva, rather than taking the first one that comes. Alternatively, if they are waiting at the median stop and a Route 1 bus arrives, they may attempt to cross the street against the light in order to get to the curbside stop. I question retaining service to the Saddle Creek stop really worth the inconvenience and potential danger to other riders in the corridor.

And the response was:

For YRT local routes are there to serve the connecting stops that viva cannot – viva is the rapid service with stops spaced further apart, while YRT serves neighbourhoods and also feeds the rapid transit system. We will be launching a public education campaign when we approach the service date for the rapidways informing riders on how best to choose between viva and YRT. In general, your final destination should dictate your choice – e.g. travelling along Highway 7, if your final destination is Kennedy, choose viva; if Village Parkway is your final destination, choose YRT Route 1. With viva running in the rapidways, it will be more efficient and reliable, and hence easier to predict when the next bus will arrive. This should also help facilitate the choice.

We can’t make exceptions to this as you suggest for Saddlecreek and Pond, as it would impact system wide operations. Both of these stops will be back in service when we open the rapidway from Bayview to Hwy 404. Hence, YRT will continue to service curbside stops, and viva will use the rapidways. As ridership movements may change after opening over time, YRT/Viva will continue to monitor operations and may make other YRT route adjustments if needed.

I get what they're saying in the sense that it could be confusing if some YRT routes use rapidways while others operate in mixed traffic adjacent to them.

To allow YRT to use the rapidways across the system, we would need to build additional YRT-only stops between the existing Vivastations, and there could be a risk of Viva buses getting stuck behind slower YRT buses given the lack of overtaking lanes within the rapidways.

But I think it could actually work.

Most intersections without stops still have a 4-metre median on the far side where an ordinary YRT stop + shelter could go:

Highway 7 & Saddlecreek

Some intersections even have such a wide median that there's enough room for a YRT bus stop and a bus bay which would allow Viva buses to overtake.

Highway 7 & Rodick

Most Viva frequencies are so low that YRT buses could be scheduled between them without getting in the way. The only place that might cause issues is on Yonge Street where Viva services is extremely frequent and YRT shares the route for a huge distance (so Viva buses will inevitably catch up to YRT buses eventually). Fortunately that Rapidway hasn't been built yet so there's still the possibility of adding in some YRT local stops with bus bays.

They could launch the Viva Orange's rerouted route partially and keep a branch of the current route.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did this. Alternatively they could reroute the YRT 77A Highway 7 West Express onto the rapidway rather than using the 407.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I'm not sure what your point is--Highway 7 West has not opened yet, Davis has been open to buses for quite a while now.

I was being ironic. If one is going to declare that a new Rapid Transit system has "failed" when it's only been open a year, why not declare one failed that has yet to open at all? Same difference.

As for the Highway 7 West section, my understanding is Viva has been figuring out what to do since the rapidway is ready to go but the service it's designed for isn't kicking in until the subway opens. They may try running the local routes through it over the winter at some point, rather than just leaving it there. I'm sure ordinary folks are driving by wondering what the deal is so might as well.

And I kind of understand the argument local buses should be able to use the rapidways but it's been clear from the outset that Viva uses the rapidways and YRT uses the local roads and that's the deal, period. Clearly there are some operational challenges even if us backseat transit planners think it should be easy peasy. Off the top of my head - I don't even know which YR contractor runs which part of the system anymore but Viva is its own contract either way. So it has its own drivers. You want someone else on the rapidway, now you have to train them. Plus the way they did the construction, IIRC, Metrolinx effectively owns the ROW and leases it to YRT to operate. There could be all sorts of implications to letting other buses (even GO, owned by Metrolinx) using it.

In every sense, I imagine it's more trouble than it's worth.

 

[salsa]

Making the line an extension of Blue would be less efficient than keeping it separate. Can you imagine how irregular the headways would be after a bus has been driving in traffic for an hour? By keeping Yellow as it's own little spur, it is much easier to keep the service running correctly.

Eventually Viva Blue will run mostly in its own dedicated lane and have transit priority signals, just like on highway 7. At that time, would it then make sense to merge the Blue and Yellow, or would it still be too difficult to maintain consistent headways and reliable service?

 

[smallspy]

Eventually Viva Blue will run mostly in its own dedicated lane and have transit priority signals, just like on highway 7. At that time, would it then make sense to merge the Blue and Yellow, or would it still be too difficult to maintain consistent headways and reliable service?

Even once all of the busway currently scheduled to be built, only about a quarter of the VIVA Blue route will be in its own lanes. The rest of it will be in mixed traffic. And while the dedicated lanes will help mitigate the running in mixed traffic to a degree, it won't be able to do so completely. The other question is: where are those people going to once they get to the Newmarket Terminal on Blue? If a healthy proportion of them are going to travel along Davis Drive on VIVA Yellow, then maybe its worth it - but I don't know the ridership patterns well enough to be able to say one way or the other.

Keep in mind too, that at least some portion of Blue service is to continue north to East Gwillembury GO Station in the future.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[ShonTron]

The Davis Drive Transitway was a waste of valuable capital funds. York Region is great for building transit infrastructure, but notorious for refusing to pay for the transit to actually serve it. It looks great on them as they get a subway extension opening at the end of this year, and as they lobby for another subway extension.

Brampton adds service every year, and get the best transit ridership increases in the GTA. And without the fancy median busways, too.

 

[Leo_Chan]

The Davis Drive Transitway was a waste of valuable capital funds. York Region is great for building transit infrastructure, but notorious for refusing to pay for the transit to actually serve it. It looks great on them as they get a subway extension opening at the end of this year, and as they lobby for another subway extension.

Brampton adds service every year, and get the best transit ridership increases in the GTA. And without the fancy median busways, too.

Are you saying that York Region builds transit in the unnecessary places, but doesn't fund for transit where it matters?
For example, the Davis Drive Rapidway was built fast, but unnecessary. While the Richmond Hill Centre to Finch Station has service, but not enough; similar to other corridors that have service, but not enough of it.