YRT/Viva Construction Thread (Rapidways, Terminals)

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

As for Vaughan's downtown location, I'm not talking about the locations of existing GO stations. The city was a blank slate at one point so the new downtown could have been literally anywhere. They ended up choosing the current location after much of the city was already built out, and your point about access to two highways proves my point that they were thinking more about cars than transit.

you can't turn back time. Some cities started growing when horses were common and some started growing when cars were common. A major point of the Growth Plan is to build not-car-oriented centres in car-oriented centres. I mean, how long have the CN rail lines been around in Vaughan? 100 years? I dunno. The point of the Growth Plan + Greenbelt + Big Move is to accept that reality and choose locations within it. We can't say "modern planning thought is about X" and then retro-apply it and the fact Vaughan was once a blank slate is really an academic exercise. So most of the earth, 500 years ago but "urban growth centres" (to use our modern technology) were founded in harbours, along rivers and all sorts of similar places.

And, as I'm sure you know, many of our modern suburbs are consolidations of historic communities. So it might be nice if you could build a Delorean, travel back to 1820 and tell everyone in Kleinburg and Woodbridge to move down to Thornhill, cuz that's where the action's gonna be at, closer to Toronto - but historic settlement patterns are what they are. You could "literally build a downtown anywhere" in Vaughan, and they did: in the three communities I just mentioned (plus smaller hamlets etc.).

Despite my point about the highways being at VMC, I don't think it shows "they were thinking more about cars than transit." I could at least as easily say the same about Toronto and what it's doing with the Gardiner and Smart Track at the Unilever site. One has to compromise with the reality that exists and the reality you want to create.

Of course, none of this changes that RER will typically be better than the subway for outer suburban residents to get downtown. And that transit in these areas should be planned around RER where possible rather than subway extensions farther and farther into the suburbs.

Obviously this is true; the only question is how you define "outer suburbs." A subway to Barrie is obviously stupid. I'd say a subway to Elgin Mills, for that matter, is obviously stupid. But is Vaughan, around Highway 7, an outer suburb? No more than North York, IMHO. Obviously there is an inner core of 416 well-served by only subway but for most of the outer 416/905, it's a mix of modes that is crucial. Whether it's Scarborough or North York or Markham, having RER + subway provides network redundancy and travel options, depending where you're going.

 

[MisterF]

you can't turn back time. Some cities started growing when horses were common and some started growing when cars were common. A major point of the Growth Plan is to build not-car-oriented centres in car-oriented centres. I mean, how long have the CN rail lines been around in Vaughan? 100 years? I dunno. The point of the Growth Plan + Greenbelt + Big Move is to accept that reality and choose locations within it. We can't say "modern planning thought is about X" and then retro-apply it and the fact Vaughan was once a blank slate is really an academic exercise. So most of the earth, 500 years ago but "urban growth centres" (to use our modern technology) were founded in harbours, along rivers and all sorts of similar places.

And, as I'm sure you know, many of our modern suburbs are consolidations of historic communities. So it might be nice if you could build a Delorean, travel back to 1820 and tell everyone in Kleinburg and Woodbridge to move down to Thornhill, cuz that's where the action's gonna be at, closer to Toronto - but historic settlement patterns are what they are. You could "literally build a downtown anywhere" in Vaughan, and they did: in the three communities I just mentioned (plus smaller hamlets etc.).

Despite my point about the highways being at VMC, I don't think it shows "they were thinking more about cars than transit." I could at least as easily say the same about Toronto and what it's doing with the Gardiner and Smart Track at the Unilever site. One has to compromise with the reality that exists and the reality you want to create.

Downtown Toronto existed long before the Gardiner and the Gardiner was built to serve it. Downtown Vaughan was purposefully located next to existing highways. That's a fundamental difference and one reason that Vaughan is still being planned around driving more than transit. Other than that, I don't see what we're disagreeing on to be honest. All of what you say is true but my original point stands. I was just pointing out that suburban city centres are easier to serve with transit when they're on existing rail lines.

Obviously this is true; the only question is how you define "outer suburbs." A subway to Barrie is obviously stupid. I'd say a subway to Elgin Mills, for that matter, is obviously stupid. But is Vaughan, around Highway 7, an outer suburb? No more than North York, IMHO. Obviously there is an inner core of 416 well-served by only subway but for most of the outer 416/905, it's a mix of modes that is crucial. Whether it's Scarborough or North York or Markham, having RER + subway provides network redundancy and travel options, depending where you're going.

Obviously there's no real definition of "outer suburbs" but personally I'd say that any suburb on the edge of the urban area can be considered "outer". Vaughan is in the edge of the urban area and is bordered on the north and west by farmland. North York, by contrast, is surrounded by urban development on all sides and is more central to the rest of the city. It's also more urban in its built form and transportation patterns.

 

[Transportfan]

When the Yonge North Subway Extension is built to Richmond Hill Centre, it will create a great link. However, there is a proposal to extend the subway North to 16th Avenue or even Major Mackenzie Drive late. Won't the overlap between Subway and Viva Rapidway be kind of a waste? Even though this is a situation we'll face in 20+ years.

The Yonge extension should go to 16th. Ave as it stands now because there's going to be an underground yard extending almost to there already.

 

[cplchanb]

The Yonge extension should go to 16th. Ave as it stands now because there's going to be an underground yard extending almost to there already.

Well if that were the case then the tail tracks/yard will be pushed up to Major mack and so on. I think until all transit services in the GTA are unified under 1 banner, its not logical nor will it be possible to poke that deep into another jurisdiction's borders with such a significant revenue tool.

On a side note.....does anyone know if theres been any new orders of vivabuses lately and what is the current status of viva silver and the extension of viva green?

 

[Leo_Chan]

Well if that were the case then the tail tracks/yard will be pushed up to Major mack and so on. I think until all transit services in the GTA are unified under 1 banner, its not logical nor will it be possible to poke that deep into another jurisdiction's borders with such a significant revenue tool.

On a side note.....does anyone know if theres been any new orders of vivabuses lately and what is the current status of viva silver and the extension of viva green?

Well, Viva Green isn't really getting an "extension" to say, more like being rerouted to go from RH GO on Major Mack to Don Mills Station on Leslie and Don Mills. This is similar to how Viva Orange is getting rerouted to go from VMC to RHC along Highway 7. As for Viva Silver, it's from RH GO on Major Mack to VMC on Jane.

As for progress on Green and Silver. I've not heard of any progress on the construction. This may be due to to fact that the Curbside Viva Stations are suppose to be constructed between 2018 and 2020, so obviously no news should be out on it yet -_-

 

[Transportfan]

Well if that were the case then the tail tracks/yard will be pushed up to Major mack and so on.

I mean the yard will literally extend nearly to 16th. Tail tracks only extend a train length or so beyond the station. Certainly nowhere near close to reaching the next concession street.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Does building a subway under a LRT transformed BRT have any benefit besides being faster (no intersections) but have half the stops? There's also higher capacity. It's basically a lot of overlap.

 

[cplchanb]

Does building a subway under a LRT transformed BRT have any benefit besides being faster (no intersections) but have half the stops? There's also higher capacity. It's basically a lot of overlap.

If youre referring to the Yonge extension,I dont think they will ever convert the section south of hwy 7 to LRT

 

[innsertnamehere]

long term I see an LRT to 19th or even newmarket and subway south of 7.

 

[cplchanb]

long term I see an LRT to 19th or even newmarket and subway south of 7.

That is their long term vision
Their stations are all designed for future conversion to lrt

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

The Yonge extension should go to 16th. Ave as it stands now because there's going to be an underground yard extending almost to there already.

If you are talking about the subway.Vagn wanted it to go further that one stop in the city itself but the TTC wanted them to pay half the renovation cost for Bloor station if they did it. Plus Vaughn would have to foot more of the bill for it as well.

 

[Leo_Chan]

long term I see an LRT to 19th or even newmarket and subway south of 7.

That is their long term vision
Their stations are all designed for future conversion to lrt

You both misunderstood my concern. I mean after the Rapidways are converted to LRT, and the Yonge Subway is extended to Highway 7 (which will probably come before BRT -> LRT), the underground train storage facility for the subways will already be North of Bantry Ave, which is just south of 16th Ave. Expanding the subway to 16th Ave or even Major Mac is a pretty valid option. So there may by a subway and LRT in the same corridor with basically the same stops (subway has half as many). Won't this cause an issue with service overlap?

 

[Edward Skira]

Obviously there's no real definition of "outer suburbs" but personally I'd say that any suburb on the edge of the urban area can be considered "outer". Vaughan is in the edge of the urban area and is bordered on the north and west by farmland. North York, by contrast, is surrounded by urban development on all sides and is more central to the rest of the city. It's also more urban in its built form and transportation patterns.

North York was very much outer suburb when the subway came to Finch Station. Pretty much everything north of Steeles west of Yonge was still farmland back in 1974.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Outer suburb to me means places like Whitby or Newmarket. Vaughan is a suburb, north York is part of the city more or less these days.

 

[44 North]

Downtown Toronto existed long before the Gardiner and the Gardiner was built to serve it. Downtown Vaughan was purposefully located next to existing highways. That's a fundamental difference and one reason that Vaughan is still being planned around driving more than transit. Other than that, I don't see what we're disagreeing on to be honest. All of what you say is true but my original point stands. I was just pointing out that suburban city centres are easier to serve with transit when they're on existing rail lines.


Obviously there's no real definition of "outer suburbs" but personally I'd say that any suburb on the edge of the urban area can be considered "outer". Vaughan is in the edge of the urban area and is bordered on the north and west by farmland. North York, by contrast, is surrounded by urban development on all sides and is more central to the rest of the city. It's also more urban in its built form and transportation patterns.

Yeah it doesn't make much sense, particularly when considering the double standard of those supporting subways in Vaughan but vehemently opposed to them in threads like the SRT or Sheppard. It's pretty confusing to see ppl flip-flopping and contradicting their opinions and doing contortionist 180s, 540s, or 1260deg turns.