York Region Transit: Viva service thread

[gweed123]

I think maybe they should define an urban and rural areas on the network. Urban areas should be well served by frequent transit, while rural would be served by express busses and maybe peak service.

Ottawa has 3 categories of fares: regular ($3.40 cash or 2 tickets), express ($4.80 cash or 3 tickets), and rural express ($6.20 cash or 4 tickets). Presto fares go up by similar increments, as do monthly passes.

I know YRT has a zone fare system, but perhaps they need to adopt an "urban" and "rural" region as well, and price fares accordingly. Charging that little bit extra for rural routes may help the bottom line.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

How is that much difference than the 2.71% increase that they approved for 2014?

With inflation near 2%, and population growth near 1%, a 3% increase isn't giving you much more than status quo.

I was being a bit hyperbolic but, it was REALLY 2.25%, wasn't it? And the discussion surrounding taxes the past few years has been less than mature.
Vaughan was 2.69% + a regional increase of 1.5%. And that's on a rate that's already well above Toronto's. In short, I'm really just saying the 416 is undertaxed and the 905s, after coasting on growth fees, are kind of doing their best.

(On a larger scale, one could get into discussions of cities vs. suburbs and who is subsidizing who and how to make everything more fair but....yeah.)

There's nothing objectively wrong with setting a goal of a 50/50 recovery ratio, we're all just quibbling about the sacrifices they're making in order to get there. They must be realizing the fare increases can't keep going and I don't know how much more they can gut service, especially in the north so we'll see what happens when push comes to shove. Sometimes I think the north and south should simply be different municipalities but that's not something happening in the short term.

 

[smallspy]

I don't know if anyone's got more organizational inertia than TTC.

Until you actually start dealing with the innards of the organization, you have no idea how bad they are.

If you haven't, than you'll just have to trust those of us who have.

But your example is really unfair. York Region's debt and taxes are way higher than Toronto's. Imagine what TTC could do if Toronto passed something as insane as a 3% tax increase! It would be a whole different city. At 4.5%, you could probably return TTC to something of its former glory, but then Torontoinans would be paying taxes that are at least somewhere in the vicinity of what people in Markham, Vaughan and Mississauga pay every year. So while the 905 gets stretched to the limit, Toronto has hissy fits and immature discussions over 1.75% and a mayor claiming he's improving transit while cutting it.

To the contrary, it's absolutely fair. Their choices are theirs to make, and if they feel that holding their tax increases to a lower rate so that they can then not improve the services that they then offer their residents, that's their choice to make - and their repercussions to deal with.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Electrify]

I think I mentioned this ways back, but I have seen systems with higher fares than YRT in Canada. HOWEVER these tend to be very rural or suburban shuttles into larger cities (ex: The Nation Municipality into Ottawa). However, this further exemplifies that there should be a difference between urban and rural services. Routes which run between Markham and Stouffville and Newmarket and around King Township should not have the same fare structure as urban routes which generate higher ridership potential.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Markham - Stouffville are close enough I wouldn't place them on a larger fare structure. There are only 5km of rural area between Markham and Stouffville along 9th line (which is where the bus runs), and that is shrinking.

9th line is also getting upgraded to 4 lanes as we speak from Markham to Stouffville, its a busy corridor.

 

[historybuff]

I think the real obstacle for YRT is the length of the Toronto boundary and connecting to the TTC and integrating with TTC. York Region is far more dependent on the TTC than either Mississauga or Brampton, the population is concentrated along the border, so the poor connection and integration is more detrimental. Also, YRT provides no Steeles service, and as far as I know YRT riders must pay extra to use the TTC Steeles buses. The Steeles corridor seems like a very important transit corridor for York Region, but it's missing from the YRT network.

I think it's far more then this; it's been alluded to before, I think -- it's that no one wants to pay a full fare (esp. at $4) to travel a very small distance. Easier to bike/walk to a TTC bus or drive to the Subway.

So, even with a full route along Steeles, it would end up with no riders -- as all of it's potential customers would shun it to catch the "cheaper" TTC option.

But the only way the two systems will integrate fares is with Metrolinx/provincial pressure.

 

[historybuff]

There's nothing objectively wrong with setting a goal of a 50/50 recovery ratio, we're all just quibbling [...]

I disagree. When you are basing your expense/revenue model around some specific number, then that becomes your driving mantra.

Is transit a service, or is it an exercise in creative cost accounting? The metric of a _proper_ transit service should be how many patrons are served, not how much their fares are subsidized.

They must be realizing the fare increases can't keep going and I don't know how much more they can gut service, especially in the north so we'll see what happens when push comes to shove. Sometimes I think the north and south should simply be different municipalities but that's not something happening in the short term.

I'm not sure about that; I think we went over the tipping point on fares already, and I'm sure we'll continue to see them rise.

Some creative thinking (ride to/from TTC for a buck or so) could help.

But I'm not sure. With all due respect to the planners, when I asked about service cuts to a local route, he replied "but we're adding to the Bathurst route". I thought -- does that mean I should move along Bathurst to get better service?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I disagree. When you are basing your expense/revenue model around some specific number, then that becomes your driving mantra.

Is transit a service, or is it an exercise in creative cost accounting? The metric of a _proper_ transit service should be how many patrons are served, not how much their fares are subsidized.

Are you asking, really, or as a hypothetical ideal, where we live in a world where everyone travels in free buses on empty roads?

I might agree with you that transit is a "service" but it doesn't change the fact it's paid for through a combination of taxes and fares, staffed by employees and decisions are made by politicians. York Region isn't unique in having a fare recovery target. How transit is funded (or rather not funded) in this country is a huge issue but the idea that YR council wants to achieve a balanced subsidy is not, by itself, some sort of evil.

(And FWIW, the number of patrons served has gone up exponentially in the past decade. I don't think "patrons served" is any more a metric of success than a balanced budget, unless you manage a McDonald's. Transit should be easy to use, relatively inexpensive and get you where you need to go in a reasonable amount of time. As previously discussed, there are several factors beyond the control of council or YRT [i.e. YR's huge size, the TTC on its border] that make all of this difficult.)

Some creative thinking (ride to/from TTC for a buck or so) could help.

So now YRT is hiring an employee to check where everyone is getting off the bus? Or do we go by the honour system - put a jar by the rear doors? What you're talking about is fare integration and that has to happen at the provincial level; YRT can't do it. There's "creative thinking," and then there's impossible-to-implement solutions to complex, systemic issues with transit in the GTA.

But I'm not sure. With all due respect to the planners, when I asked about service cuts to a local route, he replied "but we're adding to the Bathurst route". I thought -- does that mean I should move along Bathurst to get better service?

The region has been moving to concentrate transit service and development on corridors, including Bathurst. That's not really any more unusual than knowing that you can get better service closer to Yonge Street in Toronto. It's clear their cuts to the local routes are making things difficult - I'm not being glib - but, yeah, live closer to the main streets in a suburban municipality and you have a better shot at reliable service.

These are growing pains- YR is bumping up against the limits of what it can do on its own. It's a suburb trying to be more transit oriented but confronting a lot of issues. Maybe I'm naive about their hearts being largely in the right place but it's not the sort of thing you can change overnight.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

TJ you are such a TTC basher. The TTC has major issues, but organization is not one of them. If you had said being on time I might agree. YRT is the one with inertia, 4.00 for a bus ride? And then demand 50/50, even the TTC won't do that.

 

[smallspy]

And then demand 50/50, even the TTC won't do that.

As much as I might malign YRT, the 50% farebox recovery ratio is definitely not of their doing.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

TJ you are such a TTC basher. The TTC has major issues, but organization is not one of them. If you had said being on time I might agree. YRT is the one with inertia, 4.00 for a bus ride? And then demand 50/50, even the TTC won't do that.

First, I don't think I'm a ttc basher. I totally empathize with the funding straight jacket they've been in, for example. But my impression had always been that they are conservative and parochial their thinking. Every time I talk to someone who deals with them directly, it's affirmed. They think it's perfectly cool to use tokens and tickets in 2014 and don't care at all that their riders cross municipal borders every day.

But that is mutually exclusive from yrt's issues. Unlike ttc, the border is central for them and they are younger but I'm not excusing the high fares or service cuts. By all means, throw on time in their too. Especially since it the alleged rationale behind the yrt service cuts.

All that said, my point was really that yrt operates with some unique constraints, particularly tied to geography. It's an urbanizing suburb in the south (contiguous with to) and has a large rural north. Hitting 50/50 and other ambitious targets will always be a challenge in that context.

 

[taal]

TJ you are such a TTC basher. The TTC has major issues, but organization is not one of them. If you had said being on time I might agree. YRT is the one with inertia, 4.00 for a bus ride? And then demand 50/50, even the TTC won't do that.

No the TTC has plenty of issues ... the organization it self being the most prevalent one; They're completely stubborn, line managmenet is a joke ... probably the worst in North America ... they'd change $4 if they could but you can't get away with something like that in Toronto due to all the press coverage, York region, it could go up to $20 and you'd see one article, if that ..

Route management is the down fall of the TTC, bunching kills service, heck, if line management could be improved, that in it self would be a huge service improvment without 1 additional bus or streetcar.

 

[doady]

Bunching is just a reality of extremely busy and frequent surface routes. Mississauga has the same problem along Dundas and Hurontario. Even back when the 19 was 10 minutes, there was bunching. Nothing to do with mismanagement. It's the result of traffic congestion and mandatory front-door boarding and extremely high ridership.

For example, for a 3 minute route, if a bus falls even one minute behind, the amount of people waiting at the next stop just increased by 33% and that will make the bus fall even further behind.

The TTC could add more layover times to combat this problem, but more layover times requires more buses. Ultimately, the only solutions are ROW and all-door boarding scheme. With all-door boarding, the amount of people waiting at stops is no longer a factor in the speed of the bus/LRV.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

As much as I might malign YRT, the 50% farebox recovery ratio is definitely not of their doing.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

True, I should have mentioned the region demanded it, but still.

First, I don't think I'm a ttc basher. I totally empathize with the funding straight jacket they've been in, for example. But my impression had always been that they are conservative and parochial their thinking. Every time I talk to someone who deals with them directly, it's affirmed. They think it's perfectly cool to use tokens and tickets in 2014 and don't care at all that their riders cross municipal borders every day.

But that is mutually exclusive from yrt's issues. Unlike ttc, the border is central for them and they are younger but I'm not excusing the high fares or service cuts. By all means, throw on time in their too. Especially since it the alleged rationale behind the yrt service cuts.

All that said, my point was really that yrt operates with some unique constraints, particularly tied to geography. It's an urbanizing suburb in the south (contiguous with to) and has a large rural north. Hitting 50/50 and other ambitious targets will always be a challenge in that context.

Right, the TTC gets even less funding then YRT but they have cut service. That's not really nice but that's what happens when you get abonded by upper levels of governments. TTC does charge higher fares to service outside because it's costs more to run the warden and bathhurst buses to major mac. Both the TTC and YRT need help!

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

No the TTC has plenty of issues ... the organization it self being the most prevalent one; They're completely stubborn, line managmenet is a joke ... probably the worst in North America ... they'd change $4 if they could but you can't get away with something like that in Toronto due to all the press coverage, York region, it could go up to $20 and you'd see one article, if that ..

Route management is the down fall of the TTC, bunching kills service, heck, if line management could be improved, that in it self would be a huge service improvment without 1 additional bus or streetcar.

Bunching is just a reality of extremely busy and frequent surface routes. Mississauga has the same problem along Dundas and Hurontario. Even back when the 19 was 10 minutes, there was bunching. Nothing to do with mismanagement. It's the result of traffic congestion and mandatory front-door boarding and extremely high ridership.

For example, for a 3 minute route, if a bus falls even one minute behind, the amount of people waiting at the next stop just increased by 33% and that will make the bus fall even further behind.

The TTC could add more layover times to combat this problem, but more layover times requires more buses. Ultimately, the only solutions are ROW and all-door boarding scheme. With all-door boarding, the amount of people waiting at stops is no longer a factor in the speed of the bus/LRV.

Like Doady said bunching is just reality. I think that the TTC needs to improve being on time and introduce wifi/internet on the RT. Comfort improvements cost little and would bring up the image of the TTC.