Yonge Street Revitalization (Downtown Yonge BIA/City of Toronto)

[MisterF]

Your argument would have far more credibility if it didn't resort to making this personal about me, dismissing me as just being 'nostalgic' in other words...

No offence but your posts do have a certain nostalgia to them. There's an air of 'kids these days' in all the posts by you and fresh lamenting technology and musical tastes.

kickboxing? Really??

Why not? I train in Brazilian jiu jitsu but I've done some kickboxing too. Almost everyone I know plays one sport or another or has a gym routine. You'd be surprised how many of them don't do the traditional gym. They do stuff like hockey, baseball, soccer, ultimate frisbee, wall climbing, volleyball, or in my case BJJ.

No, i'm talking about how the average Joe and Jane lived their life in the city, not just ravers and tight-rope walkers (and raving is like so 20 years ago by the way, just saying'):



You make it sound like the average person in the city is doing any of the things you mentioned. They are not! The average person is at home every night flipping through 3,000 channels on their flat-screen T.V. while surfing Eharmony or Grindr (depending on what they're looking for)... and I'd be surprised if even 5% of the population has stepped foot inside of an art gallery over the past year (adjusting for Nuit Blanche perhaps). No, the record shop experience was pretty universal and regular, as was going to the movies, out to dance, date, cruise Yonge, meet friends etc., things people had to do to interact before iPhones.

That's just it though, the average person in the city is doing those things. The average person has a social life and goes out and does things when they're not working, even if it's just going to tapas bars. And as for eHarmony and Grindr, those things do result in actual dates (well, I assume they do in the case of the latter). And those dates are often just the kinds of things that you think average people don't do. That's what all those people you see in the streets and parks and businesses every day are doing, they're not just corporate zombies staring at their smartphones and tv screens all night. Again, no offence, but you seem pretty out of touch with how younger generations live their lives.

I remember going down to Sam, Music World, HMV etc to buy new cassette albums (I'm not old enough for vinyl) and while people looked forward to release dates and rushed to the stores after school it wasn't really some out of the ordinary social experience as far as I remember. Just walk into the store, flip through the albums, and get the one you wanted.

Yes people have become device zombies these days, but those people you see filling up the cafes, patios, parks and other public spaces are having a good time, not just sitting by themselves looking at their phones. A place like Trinity Bellwoods wasn't a place you hung out back in the day since it had more of a reputation of being a place where the hobos slept. Now it's pretty much filled up with young people on the weekends during the warm months. The same goes for many other parks around the city. People did go to the park in the past but I don't recall them having as many people as they do now, and same goes for the beaches (unless you go way back to the sunnyside days).
There are other places full of people that didn't have much going on in the past like the King West area (including all those clubs), Yorkville, and Bloor West Village to name a few.

I remember how hardly anyone went out on Sundays since barely anything was open, there wasn't much to do in the evenings since many places would close by 7, and the people in the city just didn't have many places to go eat on a night out. The city had a very milquetoast feel. Nowadays there is some festival or another going on every weekend and yes people do show up. There are countless eateries serving food from all over the world that aren't just sitting there empty.

Agreed with pretty much all of this. There are so many neighbourhoods that were dead or straight up nonexistent 40 years ago that today are thriving and filled with people.

 

[Lenser]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but there are many more people living in the core these days, period. All those condo towers sprouting up means the parks and streets are teeming with people. Back in the day the population density of the core was considerably lower. By way of example, what we now call Liberty village these days was, back in the late 70s/early 80s, pretty sparsely populated.

 

[Tewder]

A place like Trinity Bellwoods wasn't a place you hung out back in the day since it had more of a reputation of being a place where the hobos slept. Now it's pretty much filled up with young people on the weekends during the warm months. The same goes for many other parks around the city. People did go to the park in the past but I don't recall them having as many people as they do now, and same goes for the beaches (unless you go way back to the sunnyside days).

Not to put too fine a point on it, but there are many more people living in the core these days, period. All those condo towers sprouting up means the parks and streets are teeming with people. Back in the day the population density of the core was considerably lower. By way of example, what we now call Liberty village these days was, back in the late 70s/early 80s, pretty sparsely populated.

Yes, Liberty 'Village' was largely a manufacturing area then, back when diverse urban centres had manufacturing and middle-class job opportunities (joking).

The popular lively areas were definitely fewer and further between because Toronto was still in its early development. These areas were more concentrated though: Yorkville in its time (folksy days or yuppy 80s), Yonge Street (until it died), Queen Street in the 80s, the gay village in the 90s etc... and just because certain areas weren't gentrified doesn't mean they weren't vibrant, i.e. Chinatown, Kensington, Roncy etc., areas where vibrant immigrant communities lived diverse lives, not just places for development opportunities (overpriced condos) and cool hangouts for hipsters.

I remember going down to Sam, Music World, HMV etc to buy new cassette albums (I'm not old enough for vinyl) and while people looked forward to release dates and rushed to the stores after school it wasn't really some out of the ordinary social experience as far as I remember. Just walk into the store, flip through the albums, and get the one you wanted.

Not every trip to the record store was an experience for sure, but many were, in my experience at least. I knew the people who worked in the local shop and it was a place to hang out if you were into music, or I'd seek out the people working in the bigger shops who had more knowledge, spending hours with friends going through music bins looking for things that i'd not seen before or heard of, discussing music and artists, getting recommendations and so on (of course it's all a click away on iTunes now). None of this was out of the ordinary though and people did this for generations. When the Ladies sang, "Drove downtown in the rain, 9:30 on a Tuesday night, just to check out the late-night record shop" they were singing about a social rite (like cruising Yonge Street) and not just a shopping trip to pick up an album, clearly. (caveat: others here are relaying personal experiences/anecdotes so I figure mine are just as valid, I'm not trying to be nostalgic!! I use iTunes too.).

I remember how hardly anyone went out on Sundays since barely anything was open, there wasn't much to do in the evenings since many places would close by 7, and the people in the city just didn't have many places to go eat on a night out. The city had a very milquetoast feel. Nowadays there is some festival or another going on every weekend and yes people do show up. There are countless eateries serving food from all over the world that aren't just sitting there empty.

I agree that Sundays are definitely livelier and more vibrant today!! Though if i were to wax nostalgic a little I do miss Sundays that offered a complete societal break from consumerism. I'm sure some people viewed them as milquetoast drudgery, but i'm also sure that some people loved them.

No offence but your posts do have a certain nostalgia to them. There's an air of 'kids these days' in all the posts by you and fresh lamenting technology and musical tastes.

I realize it's hard not to come off as nostalgic when arguing a case for a previous time period. Aside from a little snark here and there (and hey this is the internet after all) I've made a point to not 'bash' today or 'kids today' because of this. Heck, I'm one of the crowd at the tapas bars! I may be pushing the line of reasoning to make a point that the comparatively smaller less-developed city we knew was indeed vibrant in its own way, and in some lost ways that had merit... this is how i'd rather frame the argument, rather than let it continue to drift further into a 'the past was better than now' direction, because I wouldn't necessarily argue this for many contexts.

 

[Lenser]

Tewder: Liberty Village's manufacturing sector had largely disappeared by the early-80s, when I first started frequenting the place. Being full of large warehouse spaces it was then a haven for artists and bands... cheap rent in an out-of-the-way location. There was still some light manufacturing, sure, but the big stuff had already vanished. At the time the old munitions factory on Hanna played host to a small but thriving filmset construction firm and many artists... and band practice spaces. What a cavernous place. By the mid-80s I was hanging out a lot at an old brick industrial complex on Fraser... no one particularly cared about old industrial buildings and environmental issues; we were all young and prepared to live forever.

So while there was a fair of work happening in the daytime, at night there were only intermittent things like speakeasies and warehouse parties. The degree of change from that era to today is nothing less than profound. The population has ballooned, especially over the last decade or so.

Also, around 2001 or so, there were film production offices on Mowatt - one of my first movie gigs was there. Since then, design shops and tech firms have arrived. In a way, the area has been transitioning for an awfully long time.

I'm not trying to wax nostalgic about what's been lost - the nocturnal scene could be pretty sketchy and it sometimes felt like an awfully lonely, possibly dangerous area. That said, I'm not particularly happy with what has replaced it, but that's another story.

 

[M.R.Victor]

That's just it though, the average person in the city is doing those things. The average person has a social life and goes out and does things when they're not working, even if it's just going to tapas bars.

I was just about to say this. I only listed things that either I or my friends have done in the past few months. And I'm a 29 year-old who works at Rogers, far from the embodiment of cool. As a matter of fact, I know very few people who aren't actively involved in some form of side business, art, craft, hobby or event series. I speculate that social-media has created a sense of self-awareness, to the point that everyone is a bit of a self-improvement junkie. This generation could be described as over-achieving when it comes to cultural production and participation. That's vibrant vibrancy, though most of it virtual and thus out of sight.

 

[freshcutgrass]

This generation could be described as over-achieving when it comes to cultural production and participation.

ha ha ha

Is that why you all have tattoos now? Is that why you can say Daft Punk is "original" with a straight face?

I suppose I can't put all the blame on you, as it is quite possible that it has all been done.

As long as we all realize that April Wine sucks...right?

ha ha ha

 

[freshcutgrass]

Released in 1977...



[video=youtube_share;vnIwl3FNUl8]http://youtu.be/vnIwl3FNUl8[/video]

 

[freshcutgrass]

Munich Machine...Get on the Funk Train!! (also Moroder...also released in 1977)


[video=youtube_share;AsJ5bxEN8Gg]http://youtu.be/AsJ5bxEN8Gg[/video]

 

[freshcutgrass]

And of course... (yes...also Moroder and also 1977)


[video=youtube_share;iX8n6o-MH4Y]http://youtu.be/iX8n6o-MH4Y[/video]

 

[Happy Camper]

Those are some good tunes, Freshcutgrass.

I would pretty much agree with your claim that the talent from 1977, alone, wipes the floor with what has been released this millennium (and I'm only 31); however, Buckethead is definitely one exception. He's on par with the greatest of those artists; in fact, probably even more gifted than any of them:

http://grooveshark.com/#!/search?q=buckethead+superhuman

http://grooveshark.com/#!/search?q=buckethead+ghost (Play 3rd song down, 'Ghost').

http://grooveshark.com/#!/search?q=buckethead+machete (Play first track, 'Machete') The solo (my favourite of all time) at 2:57 is easily as moving as anything by David Gilmour, or any highly lauded guitarist for that matter. The last two songs are from 1998 -- so not quite 21st century -- the first one is, however.

Going back a little further to the early/mid 90s there was Jeff Buckley (had he lived he would have been in a league of his own, tearing up the music world today, single-handedly). I can't think of a more all around talented musician that has ever lived. He was literally like Page & Plant in one body. Check out what some artists (including Page & Plant, David Bowie, Elvis Costello, Steve Vai, etc.) said about him: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jeff_Buckley#About_Jeff_Buckley (This excellent documentary: https://vimeo.com/73519591 is also worth the watch for those interested. Jimmy Page is in it a few times. He has some nice words about Jeff just before the 32 minute mark. Also of interest is the intro of the doc; shot at Trinity Center Church on 28 October 1994. Some of you may have been there).


Who else can do this? Nobody can rock jazz like that (see grooveshark link below). I especially love the tempo and intensity picks up at 1:51. So much attitude in his playing and such great phrasing). His voice also sounds like Myles Davis' trumpet at 7:24, lol. So ridiculously good. I can't believe this guy ever existed.
http://grooveshark.com/#!/search?q=jeff+buckley+the+way+young+lovers+do (Click 2nd song down - Sin-é version). It's just mind boggling that one person could contain so much infinite ability. Obviously his voice was incredible (ridiculous to think that he didn't start singing in public until his mid 20s), but his guitar proficiency is so overlooked because of the former. His chops were up there with the greatest classic rock and classical guitarists ever.


[video=vimeo;74410446]https://vimeo.com/74410446[/video] (The last minute or so. Eat your heart out, Robert Plant).

 

[Happy Camper]

Same song, but worth a repeat just for the vocal acrobatics from 3:15 - 3:33.

[video=vimeo;76233691]https://vimeo.com/76233691[/video]

 

[Happy Camper]

[video=vimeo;73510780]https://vimeo.com/73510780[/video]
Man, this makes me cry. So romantic and poetic. You'd have to be pretty lifeless not to be moved by this performance. The improvised bit from 4:00-5:10 is so serene and beautiful. He understood the spectrum of human emotion better than any musician/performer I've ever encountered. I love a lot of music, from all sorts of bands, genres, time periods, but his stuff is just on another plain for me. It's unbelievable how many people still have no idea who he is, yet his influence on people in the music industry is massive. I once heard him described as the most famous unfamous musician of all time. Though I guess it's not surprising that he isn't bigger than he is. North Americans are pretty uncultured people. Their idea of good music is whatever they've been fed via MTV, MuchMusic, the radio -- and for people born around 1990, and beyond -- American Idol, etc... Europeans, on the other hand, are surrounded by art from birth. It's everywhere in their cities and towns; whether it be beautiful architecture, or paintings, sculptures, etc... I guess that's why he was more popular in life, and still in death, in Europe and Australia. They're more open to unconventional music and art. North Americans (largely), I find, are pretty shallow, and not very open to music that takes patience and repeated listening to understand. We're a culture that wants instant gratification, with little effort. How could anyone market someone like Jeff Buckley? His music lacks catchy beats. It is too abstract -- and in many cases -- painfully sad for the casual music listener to appreciate.

 

[Happy Camper]

And one last one:

Play the first song from this DVD

[video=vimeo;104889221]https://vimeo.com/104889221[/video]

This is like The Doors meets Led Zeppelin; but better than both. There's such an ominous beauty about the melody of this song and the gradual intensity pick up is really captivating. The howls he sings in the climax (6:11 - 6:29) make him sound like some savage wolf man. The first time I heard this I was scared to death. It's such a kick in the schnutts (as John Candy would say) that he died so young, and in such a foolish way. Had he lived, I think the music world would be a very different place today.

This guy was a once in a life time talent. It's demoralizing to know most people never even knew he existed. Videos of him on YouTube have thousands of views, whereas Gangnam Style has over 2 billion views. What a world we live in when true artists are ignored. Music ain't no product.

What he says here about art is really beautiful and intelligent: (2:40 - 3:07) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kySBJAimL7I&list=UUTzzsUZ0AWCmNhLmdpHmuTw Where are the poetic, thoughtful souls like this in today's music world? I feel so disenchanted with contemporary music.

 

[thecharioteer]

Has this thread gone somewhat off-track?

 

[Lenser]

You think?

Yes, it has. I'm a big fan of Jeff Buckley but... maybe there should be a music thread in UT where we can all discuss the latest news on rad bands like Air Supply and whomever else.