Yonge-Dundas Square/Sankofa Square (Brown + Storey Architects)

[picard102]

So is our CN Tower. We have other things that tourist descend here upon that's not a cheap and cheeze sandwich knock-off from somewhere else. /shrug

We're not the only city to have a broadcast tower. It certainly wasn't the first, and it's no longer even the tallest.

Not everything in life that is viable is for profit.

But some things are. If you'd like a different non profit center there are plenty of others to choose from. Not every area of the city needs to cater to one idea.

 

[C-mac]

The best Toronto can be is to be Toronto - everything from being assertively capitalist to treating people in need humanely and compassionately. And pretty much everything in between.

We don't need to pretend that we should be, or are, anyone else.

I don't understand what these statements are supposed to mean when it comes to the discussion of how cool an urban city is. People in NY might be a bunch of jerks, but the tall skyscrapers, cool bridges to Manhattan, and the blend of new and old architecture is what makes it an urban paradise. There are plenty of places on the planet where we can debate if they are better to live on the merits of livability, friendliness, etc...

IMO, topics like should Yonge and Dundas square keep improving on what it already is, and how it relates to urbanism is yes. They've already committed to making this area this flashy centre point like a Times Square, so might as well keep going down the path of doing it right. Call if a knock off of New York or anywhere that something this, but if were going to have one of these areas, I'd rather the rest of the world think it's pretty cool then some lame half ass attempt to have one of these kind of spots.

 

[limer]

I don't understand what these statements are supposed to mean when it comes to the discussion of how cool an urban city is.

This comes to mind.

 

[Northern Light]

IMO, topics like should Yonge and Dundas square keep improving on what it already is, and how it relates to urbanism is yes. They've already committed to making this area this flashy centre point like a Times Square, so might as well keep going down the path of doing it right. Call if a knock off of New York or anywhere that something this, but if were going to have one of these areas, I'd rather the rest of the world think it's pretty cool then some lame half ass attempt to have one of these kind of spots.

YDS is not a heritage space. It was not always this way.
In point of fact, it didn't exist until 2002. I happen to think it looked better before (which is not to say good; but certainly more urban and edgy)..

Regardless, just as we (Toronto) took down a lot of buildings to make way for the Square and what surrounds it (10 Dundas East)..........we can (and should) start over again.

We made a hash of it. It didn't work out. No shame in admitting that and moving on.
The billboards never made it amazing and never will; they add light pollution and crass commercialism without giving anything back.

The Square itself is also banal and has a poor relationship to Dundas Street East.

****

As apart from that, and as stated before, I happen to like much about NYC, Times Square is not one of its better features in my mind.
But even if it were, I wouldn't want to duplicate it here. Should NYC build its own CN Tower?

Let NYC have Yankee Stadium and the ESB and the Brooklyn Bridge and Times Square.

Let Toronto be Toronto, just a better version of itself.

My take on how to improve the Square itself is one I've already given in this thread, so I won't repeat it.

As to 10 Dundas East, level it, and the Ryerson parkade.

Rebuild the O'Keefe Brewery (to its original design, but allow for adaptive re-use), rebuild the Biltmore theatre, rebuild the hotel at Yonge/Gould Let Toronto's recreated historicity sing and contrast
with the Eaton Centre, which should likewise see the original Dundas entrance restored, instead of the cluttery crap that's there now.

In the alternative, design something new, but let it be the subject of an open, invited, architectural competition, with critics taking first cut, and a top 5 choice going to a public vote, no value-engineering allowed.

 

[old boy]

YDS is not a heritage space. It was not always this way.
In point of fact, it didn't exist until 2002. I happen to think it looked better before (which is not to say good; but certainly more urban and edgy)..

Regardless, just as we (Toronto) took down a lot of buildings to make way for the Square and what surrounds it (10 Dundas East)..........we can (and should) start over again.

We made a hash of it. It didn't work out. No shame in admitting that and moving on.
The billboards never made it amazing and never will; they add light pollution and crass commercialism without giving anything back.

The Square itself is also banal and has a poor relationship to Dundas Street East.

****

As apart from that, and as stated before, I happen to like much about NYC, Times Square is not of its better features in my mind.
But even if it were, I wouldn't want to duplicate it here. Should NYC build its own CN Tower?

Let NYC have Yankee Stadium and the ESB and the Brooklyn Bridge and Times Square.

Let Toronto be Toronto, just a better version of itself.

My take on how to improve the Square itself is one I've already given in this thread, so I won't repeat it.

As to 10 Dundas East, level it, and the Ryerson parkade.

Rebuild the O'Keefe Brewery (to its original design, but allow for adaptive re-use), rebuild the Biltmore theatre, rebuild the hotel at Yonge/Gould Let Toronto's recreated historicity sing and contrast
with the Eaton Centre, which should likewise see the original Dundas entrance restored, instead of the cluttery crap that's there now.

In the alternative, design something new, but let it be the subject of an open, invited, architectural competition, with critics taking first cut, and a top 5 choice going to a public vote, no value-engineering allowed.

When are we going to stop this nonsense about Toronto trying to be some thing else ? A lot of these facile assertions about the city come from somewhere else anyway. As Northern Light says, " Let Toronto be itself, just a better version of itself. ", and stop looking over the shoulder for acceptance.

 

[Lenser]

YDS is not a heritage space. It was not always this way.
In point of fact, it didn't exist until 2002. I happen to think it looked better before (which is not to say good; but certainly more urban and edgy)..

Regardless, just as we (Toronto) took down a lot of buildings to make way for the Square and what surrounds it (10 Dundas East)..........we can (and should) start over again.

We made a hash of it. It didn't work out. No shame in admitting that and moving on.
The billboards never made it amazing and never will; they add light pollution and crass commercialism without giving anything back.

The Square itself is also banal and has a poor relationship to Dundas Street East.

****

As apart from that, and as stated before, I happen to like much about NYC, Times Square is not of its better features in my mind.
But even if it were, I wouldn't want to duplicate it here. Should NYC build its own CN Tower?

Let NYC have Yankee Stadium and the ESB and the Brooklyn Bridge and Times Square.

Let Toronto be Toronto, just a better version of itself.

My take on how to improve the Square itself is one I've already given in this thread, so I won't repeat it.

As to 10 Dundas East, level it, and the Ryerson parkade.

Rebuild the O'Keefe Brewery (to its original design, but allow for adaptive re-use), rebuild the Biltmore theatre, rebuild the hotel at Yonge/Gould Let Toronto's recreated historicity sing and contrast
with the Eaton Centre, which should likewise see the original Dundas entrance restored, instead of the cluttery crap that's there now.

In the alternative, design something new, but let it be the subject of an open, invited, architectural competition, with critics taking first cut, and a top 5 choice going to a public vote, no value-engineering allowed.

Well said. Never could understand why anyone would like that barren, windswept place. It's been a failure since it was instigated. We have to do better.

 

[DavidCapizzano]

I don't like YDS but it's packed almost every night, event happening or not.

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

But some things are. If you'd like a different non profit center there are plenty of others to choose from. Not every area of the city needs to cater to one idea.

Nor does every area need to cater to one idea as you seem to imply. /shrug

 

[picard102]

Nor does every area need to cater to one idea as you seem to imply. /shrug

Never said every area did.
This one area is catering to a specific thing, and people enjoy it.
Maybe you don't, but it's a big city and I'm sure an area you enjoy can be found instead of trying to change this one.

 

[C-mac]

When are we going to stop this nonsense about Toronto trying to be some thing else ? A lot of these facile assertions about the city come from somewhere else anyway. As Northern Light says, " Let Toronto be itself, just a better version of itself. ", and stop looking over the shoulder for acceptance.

I'm not sure how an extra electronic billboard in an intersection already filled with them leads to statements like this. We're not talking about trying to be someone else or looking over our shoulder. That area has already gone down the path of being some type of Toronto version of Times Square, whether people like or not. If we're going to have something like this, lets do it right and make it look a little better. Another one is only going to do one thing, make it a little better as opposed to some half ass lame attempt.

 

[Northern Light]

I'm not sure how an extra electronic billboard in an intersection already filled with them leads to statements like this. We're not talking about trying to be someone else or looking over our shoulder. That area has already gone down the path of being some type of Toronto version of Times Square, whether people like or not. If we're going to have something like this, lets do it right and make it look a little better. Another one is only going to do one thing, make it a little better as opposed to some half ass lame attempt.

You're welcome to disagree; but it's too much to suggest that other people's opinions are beyond comprehension or have not been explained. Multiple posters have expressed similar views and there have been multiple posts elaborating on the reasons for those views.

Lots of people don't like billboards, don't like the existing look, don't feel more of the same improves anything, and would prefer to see what has been done, un-done.
Multiple posters do not share your preference for billboards, electronic or otherwise, or feel that a vision of this space as Times Square light is a good one.

It's ok to disagree.

 

[C-mac]

This comes to mind.

haha!

Okay so here's the thing, I think people are over thinking this.

There's only so many things you can do to make a city cool and vibrant. Like I'm not sure what people want us to do "by being best Toronto ,that Toronto can be" or creating our own identity and style.

Maybe some kind of blend between a European city and a North American one? IDK

Maybe there should be a separate thread on this as it might make for an interesting discussion.

 

[C-mac]

You're welcome to disagree; but its too much to suggest that other people's opinions are beyond comprehension or have not been explained. Multiple posters have expressed similar views and there have been multiple posts elaborating on the reasons for those views.

Lots of people don't like billboards, don't like the existing look, don't feel more of the same improves anything, and would prefer to see what has been done, un-done.
Multiple posters do not share your preference for billboards, electronic or otherwise, or feel that a vision of this space as Times Square light is a good one.

Its ok to disagree.

Well unless I misread something, they really haven't explain it. From what I've read, it was more statements like "we have to try and stop copying other cities" and what I'm saying is, it's not going to be "undone", so I think it's a little over the top to suggest by adding another one it's going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Like if your not a fan of these kinds areas in big cities, that's fine, but that area is already like that. No point in wishing it's going to be undone because you don't like areas like that. (not you speficially, but people who don't like those types of things)

 

[Northern Light]

Well unless I misread something, they really haven't explain it. From what I've read, it was more statements like "we have to try and stop copying other cities" and what I'm saying is, it's not going to be "undone", so I think it's a little over the top to suggest by adding another one it's going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Like if your not a fan of these kinds areas in big cities, that's fine, but that area is already like that. No point in wishing it's going to be undone because you don't like areas like that. (not you speficially, but people who don't like those types of things)

Let's not belabour this unduly.

But to be clear, 10 Dundas East will come down, sooner rather than later. It represent too much money/opportunity left on the table, including for the current owners. The Atrium site is already in play as well for some changes.
CF probably has no particular interest in restoring the original Dundas Arcade; but it's certainly open to changes that make it more $$$ and the current site will further reconfigured with time.

So, the status quo of ethos of YDS is far from a given. Where it goes in the future is very much up in the air and is TBD.

All people are doing here is expressing their preferences for what that might look like.

No one is suggesting one more billboard will make an enormous difference one way or the other; the argument is that it won't make a particularly positive difference; and that it contributes to a vision many find lacking in ambition and unsuited to their preferences.

 

[C-mac]

You're welcome to disagree; but it's too much to suggest that other people's opinions are beyond comprehension or have not been explained. Multiple posters have expressed similar views and there have been multiple posts elaborating on the reasons for those views.

Lots of people don't like billboards, don't like the existing look, don't feel more of the same improves anything, and would prefer to see what has been done, un-done.
Multiple posters do not share your preference for billboards, electronic or otherwise, or feel that a vision of this space as Times Square light is a good one.

Its ok to disagree.

Maybe there can be a separate thread on

Let's not belabour this unduly.

But to be clear, 10 Dundas East will come down, sooner rather than later. It represent too much money/opportunity left on the table, including for the current owners. The Atrium site is already in play as well for some changes.
CF probably has no particular interest in restoring the original Dundas Arcade; but its certainly open to changes that make it more $$$ and the current site will further reconfigured with time.

So, the status quo of ethos of YDS is far from a given. Where it goes in the future is very much up in the air and is TBD.

All people are doing here is expressing their preferences for what that might look like.

No one is suggesting one more billboard will make an enormous difference one way or the other; the argument is that it won't make a particularly positive difference; and that it contributes to a vision many find lacking in ambition and unsuited to their preferences.

Not to get off topic, but what time frame do you think 10 Dundas will come down? First I ever heard of this.