Will Toronto have a second CBD?

[taal]

you are right that really i dont have anything to base this on. however i think we have scene recently a shift of people wanting to live downtown. as a result we have scene businesses begin to follow. particularly telus which did its research and found out that most yonge people want to live downtown and they want to work in the area as well. i have faith that other businesses have and will see this same logic for their own companies. sure nycc, y and e, and the vic park area have not scene office development in a long time. but they are all entering or are already in a condo boom. as a result it might take time but these areas will be desireable just as downtown is because of the thousands of residents in proximity to it. I have to also believe in a city and a region that is becoming more and more congested that location and proximity to subway and highway will also play a major draw. sure these areas dont have new office buildings but neither did markham until they were built recently. torontos behind the eight ball but it has major incentives that can lure businesses. i refuse to believe that outside of the core toronto will simply become a massive bedroom community.

I see your point but have BIG argument.

So I can see some companies will want to locate in the CBD and the core in general for the reasons you cite ... fair enough ...

But your question is about a second CBD, forget CBD, simply put, a new high concentration of commercial space outside the core.

NYCC and Yonge and Eglinton really don't have room for a great deal more of office space. But as you cited a couple other employment districts in Toronto have a huge amount of room (i.e. Consummers / 404 / 401 / ...).

But lets compare said areas to Hi-way 7, as you said people want to live in more dense urban planed areas. Markham is doing this, and there are plans for this at Hi-way 7 and Yonge as well. Those other areas in Toronto ? , no such plan exists nor will it likely exist. All those new condos near the 404 and Sheppard area exactly that ... just condos. No retail, no sense of a 'downtown' persay.

So those areas in the 905, have the tax advantage and are building the 'urban / mini downtowns ... I am referring to Downtown Markham in particular as that is the most developed plan to date'. So to me those areas should win based on the reasons you gave.

 

[kkgg7]

A CBD without subway access within walking distance is very unlikely to flourish. Consumers/404/401 etc are too hard for people to get to. People would still need to drive there.

Take a look at CBDs in other cities/financial centers. Even La Defense in suburban Paris is located right by the metro line. Don't forget many Torontonians choose not to have a car nowadays, even if they do, they would strongly prefer not having to drive to work and deal with the worsening gridlock on a daily basis. I wouldn't even consider a job which requires me to take two bus rides and a subway ride every morning.

 

[sixrings]

i think we are assuming there will be a subway to consumers and vic park eventually. also there is no reason why toronto simply cant change its taxes for businesses to facilitate growth outside the core. again dundas west, kipling, nycc, anywhere on sheppard between donmills and vic park. i agree toronto hasnt helped its case in the past but maybe seeing whats happening in the 905 combined with the condo growth they will look at things differently. lowering taxes for businesses may appear to hurt toronto but losing the businesses completely will hurt much more. i also wonder how long can 905 keep thewe taxes low? if they come into trouble like mississauga is and taxes rise the incentive to be out there changes. finally we keep seeing more people from the suburbs moving back into toronto and the city is changing. i think thats a possitive trend and toronto might potentially be under selling itself.

 

[taal]

i think we are assuming there will be a subway to consumers and vic park eventually. also there is no reason why toronto simply cant change its taxes for businesses to facilitate growth outside the core. again dundas west, kipling, nycc, anywhere on sheppard between donmills and vic park. i agree toronto hasnt helped its case in the past but maybe seeing whats happening in the 905 combined with the condo growth they will look at things differently. lowering taxes for businesses may appear to hurt toronto but losing the businesses completely will hurt much more. i also wonder how long can 905 keep thewe taxes low? if they come into trouble like mississauga is and taxes rise the incentive to be out there changes. finally we keep seeing more people from the suburbs moving back into toronto and the city is changing. i think thats a possitive trend and toronto might potentially be under selling itself.

This notion that 'a lot of people are moving from the 905 to the 416' is completely false ... I'm not sure where it started.

Yes, more people are moving downtown, from the 416 and the 905. At the same time many people leave the 416 for the 905.

Wording it correctly is saying more people are chosing to live in the core, not Consummers road. And they could be coming from anyone.


To me there is no other way to explain the lack of commerical development around the 404 / Consummers road area. Should have been just as deseriable as Hi-way 7, so the difference is the tax rate.

 

[taal]

A CBD without subway access within walking distance is very unlikely to flourish. Consumers/404/401 etc are too hard for people to get to. People would still need to drive there.

Take a look at CBDs in other cities/financial centers. Even La Defense in suburban Paris is located right by the metro line. Don't forget many Torontonians choose not to have a car nowadays, even if they do, they would strongly prefer not having to drive to work and deal with the worsening gridlock on a daily basis. I wouldn't even consider a job which requires me to take two bus rides and a subway ride every morning.

There's a subway at Yonge and Eglinton and NYCC, but just about no commercial office growth ? Why is that ? I don't think access to transportation is as crucial as you think in the GTA.

 

[adma]

By "second CBD", if one's thinking of Toronto developing its own La Defense or Pudong, well...why? Why does Toronto need to do so?

 

[kkgg7]

By "second CBD", if one's thinking of Toronto developing its own La Defense or Pudong, well...why? Why does Toronto need to do so?

You always interpret everything involving Toronto might need something other cities already happen to have as "Toronto aspires to be another XXX" and then bring about "Toronto doesn't want to be XXX" argument. Don't you think it is a bit too paranoid?

Shanghai actually has at least four sizable CBDs I am aware of, so it is really not a "why Toronto wants to be Shanghai" thing. Paris, Shanghai and Toronto are very different types of cities and they will NEVER resemble each other even a little bit.

 

[Glen]

Toronto will not have another CBD. At least none worth noting. NYCC was supposed to be a second, or new downtown. After amalgamation, North York had to adopt Toronto's low residential and high commercial taxes. Ending any chance for the area to become a large second business district. There were plans and approvals in place, but the new tax regiem forced the majority of those office plans to change to condos.....

City tries to stop condos in NYCC
Community, builder quarrel over condo

Paul Moloney
city hall bureau

Toronto's ability to shape the North York city centre is on the line as a major developer seeks to build two condominium towers on a key site long slated for two office towers.

This week, the North York community council voted unanimously to preserve the office designation on the site at Yonge St. and Park Home Ave., steps from the heart of North York's downtown.

Councillor John Filion expects city council to uphold the designation, but the developer has taken the issue to the Ontario Municipal Board, which can overrule the city and will hear the issue in March.

"If the OMB rules against the city on this, you might as well take all the planning that's been done over 25 years in North York, and the city's new official plan, and toss it all in the recycling bin," he said.

But there's no market for office development in that location, said consultant George Belza, who appeared before the community council on behalf of the developer, Menkes Gibson Square Inc., which acquired the site in 2006.

In 1992, the site was approved for two office towers of 27 and 31 storeys. Menkes is now looking at building two 45-storey condos.

Filion said the switch has major implications for the area, which has traffic congestion and a crowded subway line.

The Toronto District School Board buses children out of the area because local schools are full, said trustee Mari Rutka.

There are other benefits to office development on the stretch of Yonge St. around Sheppard Ave., which Filion argues has more than its share of condos already.

"You need enough office so people go out to lunch, and that's how you get high quality restaurants. People go shopping after work and that gives you high quality retail. A condo corridor gives you none of that."

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/303513

 

[jaycola]

Would it not be possible to incorporate an office component into new condos within the podiums? While there may not be demand for 30 story office towers, that doesn't mean there is no demand at all.
It seems that some of these areas are becoming dense with tiny, low quality retail stores at the condo bases. Why not, rather than just retail, have a certain percentage allocated to office space? While there is assuredly a draw for certain companies to the density and vibrancy of the CBD, many companies might want to take advantage of a location outside of the core as a trade off for accessibility to the outer edges of the city.

 

[taal]

Your answer is directly above...

There were plans and approvals in place, but the new tax regiem forced the majority of those office plans to change to condos.....

Toronto tax rate: 3.37%
Mississauga tax rate: 2.28%

About 50% more.

Markham has an even lower commercial tax rate.

 

[Dan416]

Your answer is directly above...



Toronto tax rate: 3.37%
Mississauga tax rate: 2.28%

About 50% more.

Markham has an even lower commercial tax rate.

In spite of this Mississauga is having a VERY difficult time getting office towers built in the MCC. Instead they're all being built in the ACC and Meadowvale.

 

[southofbloor]

While the subway system is of course vital to office development in Toronto, let's not forget how the expansion of the GO Train network over the past couple of decades has given the Financial a huge leg up on Yonge-Bloor, Yonge-St. Clair, Yonge-Eglinton, and NYCC.

Regarding the 905, congestion is worsening everyday and no BRT or LRT system can improve the areas poorly designed road network (huge distances between major roadways and the rights-of-way are massive - you could land a jumbo jet on Highway 7). Based on my conversations with brokerage firms, transportation is now the number one consideration for tenants looking at potential office locations. Also, Cadillac's Buttonville proposal is premised on the belief that the traditional suburban office model is dead... you need to animate future business parks with residential and retail in order to bring amenities for office workers during the day and after 5pm.

 

[taal]

While the subway system is of course vital to office development in Toronto, let's not forget how the expansion of the GO Train network over the past couple of decades has given the Financial a huge leg up on Yonge-Bloor, Yonge-St. Clair, Yonge-Eglinton, and NYCC.

Regarding the 905, congestion is worsening everyday and no BRT or LRT system can improve the areas poorly designed road network (huge distances between major roadways and the rights-of-way are massive - you could land a jumbo jet on Highway 7). Based on my conversations with brokerage firms, transportation is now the number one consideration for tenants looking at potential office locations. Also, Cadillac's Buttonville proposal is premised on the belief that the traditional suburban office model is dead... you need to animate future business parks with residential and retail in order to bring amenities for office workers during the day and after 5pm.

I think you made a great argument for the 905
#1 ... let's assume traffic is bad everywhere, public transportation is a good point but, unfortunately, I don't think we've reached the tipping point where businesses demand this.
While Buttonville may change the model, it will be completely car centric, the couple plans I've seen to integrate Viva purple are a joke at best.

#2 ... the 905 is building areas that incorporate the traditional purpose built office park with residential and commercial, just like downtown Markham.

#3 ... I can see arguments for wanting to be in NYCC or in the core, but anywhere else in Toronto doesn't really provide #2 above, but there are areas in the 905 that plan to.


I think eventually we may see more development in MCC, but there's so much land available outside, and such a large concentration of businesses outside, only if the city makes it extremely attractive or land for new offices becomes scarce.

 

[southofbloor]

I agree that the 905 is trying to densify and create mixed-use communities but these pockets of intensification are surrounded by poorly configured neighbourhoods. The ability for their modal splits to experience meaningful change is limited. As a result, high parking ratios will always be required in these areas. To intensify, these areas will have to either bury or stack parking. Both options are expense and do not change the fundamental transportation capacity issue in the 905. In contrast, the financial district has local (TTC) and regional (GO Transit) transportation systems that enable it to draw workers with little parking. With the condo boom, the financial core now also has access to a growing young (cheap) labour force.

 

[taal]

I agree that the 905 is trying to densify and create mixed-use communities but these pockets of intensification are surrounded by poorly configured neighbourhoods. The ability for their modal splits to experience meaningful change is limited. As a result, high parking ratios will always be required in these areas. To intensify, these areas will have to either bury or stack parking. Both options are expense and do not change the fundamental transportation capacity issue in the 905. In contrast, the financial district has local (TTC) and regional (GO Transit) transportation systems that enable it to draw workers with little parking. With the condo boom, the financial core now also has access to a growing young (cheap) labour force.

I agree the core should remain strong. But having said that, really, wouldn't you expect more commercial construction downtown (yes, even given the office proposals we've seen as of late). I think taxes still play a big role. Hence why you really don't see any American companies set up their Canadian headquarters downtown.

Regarding the 905, I wasn't comparing it to the core, rather the rest of the 416. Which really falls flat, the taxes I'm sure are the deciding factor there. But even your points, take all the condo development along Sheppard ... no retail, no planning, just a bunch of stacked housed, and absolutely no office construction.