Why the Hate for Mississauga?

[Torontovibe]

Why all the hate for Mississauga?

Well for the last year I've been hearing/reading that Mississauga has made mistakes but has now seen the light and wants to change it's ways. (after practically running out of land) They claim they now want to build a real downtown, which would be urban and environmentally friendly. So, is Mississauga building a real downtown, where pedestrians can walk and actually enjoy the experience?

Just recently I read on here that a new strip mall, with a non-pedestrian friendly parking lot out front, was being built in downtown Mississauga, RIGHT NOW! If Mississauga was serious about pedestrianizing their downtown area, and they really have changed their way of thinking, why the hell would they allow a damned strip mall in that area? Make up your mind Mississauga, do you want a real downtown or not? You can't suck and blow at the same time. It seems like all this talk about real change, was just talk, if they are still building strip malls, downtown.

And by the way, "hate" is a strong word. I don't think most urbanites HATE Mississauga, they just find it unfriendly for people who like urbanity and the pedestrian realm. (as well as being hard on our environment)

 

[scarberiankhatru]

You realize, right, that the reason MCC is so spread out and sparse is because the original designers never thought that future transportation would involve anything but cars.

For one thing, it would have been built from one centre point or corridor, expanding outwards, not specks in random spots all over the place, and the centre itself would have been closer to the railway station, not a spot seemingly chosen for proximity to the 403 off ramp.

You realize, right, that it's sparse and sporadic because it's not finished, not because it was designed to be sparse and sporadic. And it's not finished because it's so enormous...downtown Mississauga really stretches from the 403 to Cooksville, even larger than the already large branded zone near Square One. It's a work in progress. Square One will be a gaping void for quite some time...that's what happens when such a large mall with one owner controlling it, occupies your downtown. Rip the roof off, sell off bits, and redevelop the parking lots, etc. How long have transit lines like along the 403 and Hurontario been planned, anyway? Before Cooksville even had GO service?

 

[TrickyRicky]

It's interesting you mention strip malls Torontovibe, because personally I feel that strip malls are one of the most successful suburban land-use innovations yet developed. Look at how strip malls get used and re-used and sometimes become better and sometimes decline. Compare that to smart centres? Do they have a sustainable future? We can't tell yet. I've seen big box stores die and it just seems so binary either they are doing well or the lot is abandoned.

See the thing is, and I'm bringing this point up more and more on this forum, what really shapes a city is land partitioning and ownership responsibility. So instead of thinking about a city as a bunch of buildings think of it as a patchwork of human responsibility. So who has the authority and responsibility over the physical space? There is no optimal answer to this question. However, there is a right and wrong answer if you want a desired outcome. So if the desired outcome is "pedestrian friendly" or "quiet residential" etc. there are clear systems of ownership and responsibility that will produce these outcomes. The results indicate either planners and politicians do not appreciate this concept, or they cannot reconcile their own vested interests with the actions required to generate the desired outcome.

 

[syn]

You realize, right, that the reason MCC is so spread out and sparse is because the original designers never thought that future transportation would involve anything but cars.

For one thing, it would have been built from one centre point or corridor, expanding outwards, not specks in random spots all over the place, and the centre itself would have been closer to the railway station, not a spot seemingly chosen for proximity to the 403 off ramp.

You're correct. McCallion herself has admitted this as being one of the biggest mistakes Mississauga has made in her term as Mayor (about 1:45 in):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYpKMl_1_GE

They're doing what they can to reverse that and are trying to make the MCC a transit and pedestrian friendly area. It will take a lot of tiem though, and the jury is out on whether they'll truly be able to succeed (though I think they can eventually).

You've made very reasonable arguments kettal, but I think you're wasting your time. Some people will see only what they want to see, regardless of facts or reason.

 

[kettal]

You're correct. McCallion herself has admitted this as being one of the biggest mistakes Mississauga has made in her term as Mayor (about 1:45 in):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYpKMl_1_GE

They're doing what they can to reverse that and are trying to make the MCC a transit and pedestrian friendly area. It will take a lot of tiem though, and the jury is out on whether they'll truly be able to succeed (though I think they can eventually).

You've made very reasonable arguments kettal, but I think you're wasting your time. Some people will see only what they want to see, regardless of facts or reason.

Don't worry, scarberian, I'll do this one for you.

OMG, no you're wrong you're just like "eewww suburbs" and Hazel McCallion is also wrong!! She was actually designing MCC as transit friendly from the beginning she just didn't know it!!! She subconsciously knew way back in 1975 that suburban model had drawbacks!! Now Hazel is all like "eeww suburbs" so she obviously doesn't know what she's talking about!!

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Don't worry, scarberian, I'll do this one for you.

OMG, no you're wrong you're just like "eewww suburbs" and Hazel McCallion is also wrong!! She was actually designing MCC as transit friendly from the beginning she just didn't know it!!! She subconsciously knew way back in 1975 that suburban model had drawbacks!! Now Hazel is all like "eeww suburbs" so she obviously doesn't know what she's talking about!!

Now that's a typical post in threads about suburbs. But it needs more question marks, like: OMG?????

Some people are presented with facts and quotes directly from Hazel herself and still manage to misinterpret them. Downtown Mississauga is sparse because it's not finished. That's the only reason...it's just not finished. That's what happens when you site your downtown in the empty fields on all four sides of a large mall, though the fields and parking lots will be built over eventually. It wasn't "originally designed" in any cohesive way until about 2009, unless you believe the undeveloped fields were "designed."

The city as a whole has auto-centricity problems (which no one has denied or would deny) because of sprawlly houses that can barely support decent bus service. Hurontario and the rest of central Mississauga (downtown & Cooksville) aren't the real problem areas: these places can overcome their lack of transit via...drumroll, please...adding transit!

Even if downtown Mississuga was centred on Cooksville station, which would have been a great spot (anywhere would be better than enveloping a mall), that GO line is completely useless for moving Mississaugans around Mississuga. No transit existed in Cooksville at the time and there would still be no transit at Cooksville today other than a few daily trains to Union Station. They could have put City Hall in Port Credit and kept that farmland near Hurontario & Burnhamthorpe available for a master-planned ghetto of condos and office parks and big box stores. A genuine 'downtown' would be possible in Cooksville or Port Credit, but near Square One the only realistic possibility may be a 'city centre.' The stupendous scale planned for Mississauga's 'downtown' only makes it more unlikely to ever succeed, even if the 'city centre' continues to intensify, if transit lines are built, if employment doubles, etc.

Hurontario is the transit line that matters most and it might even have been up and running by now if not for funding problems, unless 2006 was actually the first time anyone suggested building it.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The current crop of architects and designers have grown up and were influenced by the auto-oriented suburbs. There's a new mall in the Bronx in NYC, that even though it has subways and buses nearby, and most people walk to the mall, the design ignores them. Click on this link for more information.

"The walkway is pitiful. Barely wide enough for two people standing still, much less walking past each other. It's sad how much space is dedicated to the horribly underused car entrance and how little space is given to pedestrians."

"Ped route to the big box stores through the parking garage."

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Speaking of that, the connection between the Hiawatha Line and the Mall of America is also incredibly awful. Not quite so bad as that walkway in the Bronx, but still needlessly bad considering it's a rapid transit connection to the largest mall in the country. It dumps you off inside a parking garage and then you enter the mall via a little passageway with a dropped ceiling that has less charm than a public washroom. Delightful!

 

[kettal]

Haha I think the builders just photocopied the drafts from an Atlanta mall to save money..

 

[kettal]

Speaking of that, the connection between the Hiawatha Line and the Mall of America is also incredibly awful. Not quite so bad as that walkway in the Bronx, but still needlessly bad considering it's a rapid transit connection to the largest mall in the country. It dumps you off inside a parking garage and then you enter the mall via a little passageway with a dropped ceiling that has less charm than a public washroom. Delightful!

Like Fairview Mall?

 

[gristle]

I just returned from Phoenix Arizona. It makes Mississauga seem downright urban.

 

[kettal]

In defence of Phoenix, at least their streets are more permeable than GTA's superblocks.

 

[Marko]

Just recently I read on here that a new strip mall, with a non-pedestrian friendly parking lot out front, was being built in downtown Mississauga, RIGHT NOW!

Care to elaborate on this?

Are you talking about new pad sites being put into the lots around Square One, or something different?

 

[khris]

I was also wondering what he was talking about. I don't know of any new strip mall being built in the city centre.

 

[Brandon716]

Why does everyone from Toronto have nothing but bitterness towards Mississauga? In terms of sprawl, is it really so bad that it's worse than Brampton or even Vaughan?

It's got a massive population and is more dense than a city like Calgary.

Without having read many comments here, its my experience a lot of people dislike Mississauga because it is development that could have occurred in more urban fashion within the city instead of west of Toronto. But all things considered, Mississauga is doing a great job of trying to alter its core with the plans I've seen.