Why is downtown Queen East abandoned?

[kkgg7]

I'm moving into the Modern early next year, and I am praying that somebody buys the Popeye's chicken and adjacent shack next to it and puts up something nice to offer a little buffer from the corner of Queen and Sherbourne. This has to be the most depressing intersection in Toronto.

Glad to hear you are moving there! I believe another condo called "Kormann House" was proposed right at the south East corner of Queen and Sherbourne in 2007 and was cancelled for some reason? That corner desperately needs something that can change things.
believe or it, that Popeye's almost looks nicer compared with adjacent builldings/shacks.

 

[kkgg7]

Really, low income people are not "supposed" to be able to afford to live in downtown? Where did that one come from?

Public housing and shelters should be located everywhere, with an eye on acceessbility and overconcentration. Just because there is an area of a city that is less desirable doesn't make the city as a whole unattractive to investors. An interesting that you should mention Eaton Centre - it didn't keep people from going there, did it? Just saying.

AoD

Market determines that the low-income population can't afford good location real estate in big cities. That's simply demand and supply. The reason gettos like Moss Park exists was because the government subsidize. them. If let the market to decide what area is desirable and who can afford it, I am sure Queen/Shoubourne would be a much nicer area.

Shelters should be located everywhere? I don't agree. shelters exist because the government, using taxpayers' money, is trying to help those who don't have the ability to afford a decent life, for free. I don't think they get to pick the locations. It is free and you are saying "no, I don't want be too far from downtown, I need to be right there?" I don't think so. They don't get to pick the locations where those who actually pay 30K tax a year would otherwise prefer, do they?

If shelters should be everywhere, how about setting up a large one with 1000 beds right next to your house? I wonder whether you would still not mind it at all, or you woudl still gladly have your kids playing on the street. Or, Why not set up some shelters at King and Bay, next to First Canadian Place? Or Bloor and Avenue road, just opposite the Park Hyatt?

With all due respect, i don't mean the government should not help homeless people. It is just to have large shelters right beside the main commercial/business city center is outright stupid. In my opinion, Moss Park, Regent Park and St Jamestown should all be moved to different near suburbs. I don't see the difference in social consequence between that and having them right in downtown core. They would cause trouble no matter what, and I think taxpayers may not have the right to subsidize them, but should at least have the right not to see them on a regular basis.

 

[GraphicMatt]

The solution is to not repeat the mistakes of the past, which saw shelters and subsidized housing all confined to the same neighbourhoods. Smaller, neighbourhood-oriented shelters spread out across the city are far more effective from all perspectives.

When the shelters were built through the east side of downtown, the rationale was that nobody would want to live downtown anyway -- we have such nice suburbs and expressways! -- , so why not use that land for social programs and keep the suburbs pristine?

 

[Torontovibe]

I am 100% sure those people would prefer if the shelters were not there and they didn't have to see weird acting guys lingering on the street corners all the time looking suspicious. Or let's put it another way, if those shelters were not there, that area would have been developed much faster and better.

The point is, people will still buy and live beside homeless shelters, government housing and lots of other things some people find undesirable. I guess it's a trade off and you have to take the good with the bad. There are also the brave urban types, like myself, who just don't fear the homeless population or neighbourhoods like Regent Park. I like seeing a nice mix of upper class, middle class, lower class and the wildly eccentric. I like social and economic diversity but I know I'm the odd man out, in that regard.

Everybody would love to see homeless people off the streets, they just don't want to pay to make it a reality, so we live with it. The east side of Toronto is developing fairly quickly. Now that it has been proven that people will buy condos here, it's just a matter of time before it's all filled in. Actually, the east side is pretty well developed now. Once the West Don Lands and Regent Park are finished, the east side will be pretty well built out. There is not a lot of empty space there and I don't see the beautiful Victorians coming down for condos. (god, I hope NOT!)

 

[Torontovibe]

That being said , I'm sure the area will continue to change. The city should try to facilitate this perhaps by funding new shelters in other wards and fixing up the ones here and maybe reducing their number of beds offered here. The homeless will fair better with this also.

The city needs to change the way they build and run homeless shelters. You can't just give the homeless a bed, then kick them out in the morning with no place to go. They end up standing outside the shelter or sleeping in the park across the street. Shelters need an enclosed courtyard and a day centre where they can hang out, otherwise, they'll just be standing on the sidewalk. Look how much nicer the area is on Jarvis, where that new homeless shelter is. They have an enclosed court yard, where their clients can sit and have a smoke or just hang out. You do not see any of the homeless standing around outside the building. The shelter there appears to have no negative effect on that corner, so if it's done right, it doesn't have to destroy the neighbourhood. We just need to use a little common sense in designing shelters.

 

[insertrealname]

The city needs to change the way they build and run homeless shelters. You can't just give the homeless a bed, then kick them out in the morning with no place to go. They end up standing outside the shelter or sleeping in the park across the street. [...] We just need to use a little common sense in designing shelters.

Totally agree: just look at what initiatives like "Streets to Homes" and that conversion of the Edwin Hotel to transitional housing (W. of Broadview on Queen E.) manage to do to maximize the chance that homeless people, even long-term homeless, can get their lives and dignity together again. And these kind of actions tend to emphasize small groups rather than large masses of needy people in one place.

 

[Admiral Beez]

You can't just give the homeless a bed, then kick them out in the morning with no place to go. They end up standing outside the shelter or sleeping in the park across the street. Shelters need an enclosed courtyard and a day centre where they can hang out

Sounds like a low security prison.

 

[insertrealname]

Sounds like a low security prison.

And your point is...? Is it your view that poor people=criminal people?

UPDATE: Apologies for my irritated reaction. Ignore my post.

 

[Dilla]

Sounds like a low security prison.

The thing that makes prison prison is that you can't leave if you want to. I don't think that would be the case here.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Public housing and shelters should be located everywhere, with an eye on acceessbility and mindful overconcentration.

Public housing should be located at the where the people in the shelter originated. IMO, many of the folks in the Toronto shelter system did not originate from Toronto, but traveled here due to the availability of support services and shelters - Toronto has built an entire service sector and infrastructure around supporting the shelter system.

If you're not working in Toronto, and from example, Barrie, Mississauga, Kingston, etc., etc. you might prefer to find shelter where you're from - and trying to find permanent housing in one of Canada most expensive city while on welfare or social assistance makes no sense if you could find the support services you need in cheaper towns. Maybe we should ask the shelter clients where they would prefer to seek shelter? Has there ever been a survey of the shelter clients about place of origin, location preferences, needed support services, including detox, mental health, etc? That's a good start to building a system that best supports both the clients and the greater community.

 

[TOareaFan]

Public housing should be located at the where the people in the shelter originated. IMO, many of the folks in the Toronto shelter system did not originate from Toronto, but traveled here due to the availability of support services and shelters - Toronto has built an entire service sector and infrastructure around supporting the shelter system. If you're not working in Toronto, and from example, Barrie, Mississauga, Kingston, etc., etc. you might prefer to find shelter where you're from - and trying to find permanent housing in one of Canada most expensive city while on welfare or social assistance makes no sense if you could find the support services you need in cheaper towns. Maybe we should ask the shelter clients where they would prefer to seek shelter? That's a good start.

Interesting point but it never struck me that the "homeless infrastructure" attracts homeless people? Not trying to be cheeky but I just don't/didn't think there are lower income or homeless or disenfranchised people in smaller communities saying "well, if this is the hand dealt me, I would rather play it out in Toronto where there is homeless infrastructure"....I get, and agree, with the notion that a number (perhaps a significant one...I don't know) of Toronto's homeless population originated in other communities but I was always under the impression (perhaps wrongly) that they came here for other reasons (maybe they weren't homeless at the time) and "things went wrong" and they found themselves homeless. Would they ask for a relocation back to "where they came from" who knows but my guess is most would view themselves as Torontonians, now, and a relocation program would not be that successful.

 

[Jonny5]

Interesting point but it never struck me that the "homeless infrastructure" attracts homeless people? Not trying to be cheeky but I just don't/didn't think there are lower income or homeless or disenfranchised people in smaller communities saying "well, if this is the hand dealt me, I would rather play it out in Toronto where there is homeless infrastructure"....I get, and agree, with the notion that a number (perhaps a significant one...I don't know) of Toronto's homeless population originated in other communities but I was always under the impression (perhaps wrongly) that they came here for other reasons (maybe they weren't homeless at the time) and "things went wrong" and they found themselves homeless. Would they ask for a relocation back to "where they came from" who knows but my guess is most would view themselves as Torontonians, now, and a relocation program would not be that successful.

I don't know for certain what it is like in most other parts of Ontario, but I would think there are many small communities where being destitute would be very difficult and the idea of moving to Toronto would be appealing for a number of reasons.

- There are a lot of religious, government and institutional charities here providing health care, counselling and food and shelter services.
- There are more employment opportunities here for unskilled jobs and especially for undocumented work.
- The weather. I would rather winter in Toronto than Thunder Bay if I wasn't sure I would have shelter.
- Having a clean slate. If you're in trouble at home or known to your community, you may want to go somewhere where no one knows you.

 

[Eug]

When I was in Vancouver, I actually asked a homeless guy once. He said he preferred Vancouver because of the weather and because it was a big city. People gave him enough money, and sometimes he would visit a homeless shelter to take a shower and get a good night's sleep.

BTW, at that time was I think when Alberta was offering free bus tickets out of Alberta to homeless people. It seemed Vancouver was a popular destination.