Whose vision of transit in Toronto do you support?

[gweed123]

How about an LRT that leaves Scarborough Town Center and travels east on Ellesmere to UTSC and Centenial College and continue east on Ellesmere, then Kingston Rd. to Pickering Town Center. GO has hinted at funding a pedestrian bridge to Pickering Town Center transit terminal and an LRT servicing this hub would make it a true multi-modal hub and UTSC would have rapid transit on their campus. If this were done the 95 bus would only have to leave York Mills Station and travel as far as Scarborough Town Center then this proposed LRT would service the rest of Ellesmere including Centenary hospital and to post secondary schools. Right now only one Durham Region Transit bus enters into Toronto and it only goes to Rouge Hill GO Station. This LRT would help intergrate Durham Region Transit with the TTC. Still most would be served by the GO Station. This LRT line would give transit users in Pickering more options and likely more people would get on public transit if the TTC and Durham transit systems were linked, like York Region Transit or Mississauga Transit is linked to the TTC presently.

There is the option for Durham to continue the Kingston BRT into Durham if they would like. The Kingston link allows them to either go to STC or to Vic Park station. There is also the option for them to extend the SELRT if they would like.

 

[gweed123]

Just a couple of comments:

1) Don Mills LRT should reach Steeles. The latest map shows it running just Eglinton to Sheppard, which means too many transfers along Don Mills.

2) Not sure why Don Mills LRT is dashed line (non-priority), whereas Jane LRT is solid line (priority).

1) The reason we decided to stop it at Sheppard is because it makes more sense for VIVA to run their service into an actual transit hub, as opposed to just having people transfer from VIVA to LRT at Steeles. I'd be more inclined to wait until VIVA wants to upgrade that portion of their service to LRT, and then extend the line up to and beyond Steeles when they're ready. We also didn't want to fool around with Finch East. Anything that disrupts one of the most profitable bus routes on the entire system without providing much transit improvement would not be wise. In other words, we didn't want to run an LRT from Don Mills to Yonge, which would ultimately chop the Finch East route in half.

2) It has to do with east vs west. There are already significant transit improvements going on in the east, yet the west only has Eglinton West, Highway 27/Kipling BRT, and Finch West. Another N-S route was needed. The Don Mills bus is a fairly adequate route, and having subway and BRT improvements east of Don Mills will likely reduce the load on that route even more. Putting Jane as a priority also pushes the need for a DRL West up the 'projects requiring additional fuding' list, which I fear once the priority projects are completed, will be forgotten. Out of the remaining projects, the DRL West and the connection between Agincourt and STC are the two most important remaining projects.

 

[Rainforest]

1) The reason we decided to stop it at Sheppard is because it makes more sense for VIVA to run their service into an actual transit hub, as opposed to just having people transfer from VIVA to LRT at Steeles. I'd be more inclined to wait until VIVA wants to upgrade that portion of their service to LRT, and then extend the line up to and beyond Steeles when they're ready.

Please note that the area around Don Mills south of Steeles is densely populated, and the large majority of LRT users will come from there rather than from VIVA. Especially with DRL East in place, many residents will like a one-seat LRT ride to DRL terminus at Eglinton.

Even if the LRT runs all the way to Steeles, VIVA buses will continue running to Don Mills Stn, unless and until they are converted to LRT. So, LRT is not an obstacle for VIVA Green. (Btw, VIVA only uses Don Mills between Sheppard and Finch, then it crosses 404 and uses Gordon Baker.)

I understand that Don Mills LRT may not be in the priority list, but when it is built, it should go to Steeles at least.

We also didn't want to fool around with Finch East. Anything that disrupts one of the most profitable bus routes on the entire system without providing much transit improvement would not be wise. In other words, we didn't want to run an LRT from Don Mills to Yonge, which would ultimately chop the Finch East route in half.

I totally agree with you about Finch East: breaking up that route is a bad idea. Either keep it as bus, or transform to LRT all at once.

However, it has no direct bearing on the Don Mills route that crosses Finch. Even moreso: if it is bad to chop Finch East, then how is it OK to chop Don Mills?

2) It has to do with east vs west. There are already significant transit improvements going on in the east, yet the west only has Eglinton West, Highway 27/Kipling BRT, and Finch West. Another N-S route was needed. The Don Mills bus is a fairly adequate route, and having subway and BRT improvements east of Don Mills will likely reduce the load on that route even more. Putting Jane as a priority also pushes the need for a DRL West up the 'projects requiring additional fuding' list, which I fear once the priority projects are completed, will be forgotten. Out of the remaining projects, the DRL West and the connection between Agincourt and STC are the two most important remaining projects.

Understood.

 

[kEiThZ]

I agree with Rainforest here. It's a bad idea to chop up Don Mills. Just take the LRT to Steeles. The Finch East portion can be left out. And can easily be explained as unnecessary and possibly having an adverse impact on the Finch bus service.

 

[gweed123]

I agree with Rainforest here. It's a bad idea to chop up Don Mills. Just take the LRT to Steeles. The Finch East portion can be left out. And can easily be explained as unnecessary and possibly having an adverse impact on the Finch bus service.

He made some good points, I can't deny the logic in it. I was making the mistake of looking at Finch East/Don Mills LRT north of Sheppard as 1 line instead of two.

 

[Fresh Start]

Please note that the area around Don Mills south of Steeles is densely populated, and the large majority of LRT users will come from there rather than from VIVA. Especially with DRL East in place, many residents will like a one-seat LRT ride to DRL terminus at Eglinton.
if it is bad to chop Finch East, then how is it OK to chop Don Mills?

It's not warranted and too costly for the ridership it'll fetch. When you say south of Steeles, you really mean south of Finch which already has an overlapping of two local routes (10 and 25) plus VIVA Green. Truncating the bus route in fact means north of Sheppard service will run more frequently and without the long layovers at DM Stn that have become customary for the 25 bus. Don Mills (Fairview) Stn is the major transfer point, it's a good location to split the service. Think about it: Sheppard subway, SELRT, possible BRT along the DVP and partially grade-separated light-rail south of Sheppard along Don Mills would all converge at this point. Don Mills LRT doesn't target directly the major trip-generator in this area, Seneca College, meaning that northern expansion should follow the DVP, not Don Mills proper. Additional stations at Gordon Baker/McNicoll and Woodbine/Steeles would capture some major employment centres along the way. And just as the Hwy 400 curves westwards at Steeles so too could the LRT line, providing for a station north of Steeles at the Shops at Steeles Shopping Centre. If York Region then desires it, the line could continue up Leslie St to Hwy 7 then overlap with VIVA Purple til Warden before running via Apple Creek Blvd into the downtowns of Markham Town Ctr and Unionville.

Even if the LRT runs all the way to Steeles, VIVA buses will continue running to Don Mills Stn, unless and until they are converted to LRT. So, LRT is not an obstacle for VIVA Green. (Btw, VIVA only uses Don Mills between Sheppard and Finch, then it crosses 404 and uses Gordon Baker.)

Which is redundant overlapping of mass transit within a kilometre of each other. If the market for DMLRT north of Finch isn't primarily going to be tranferees from York Region, then there is no market. North of Finch isn't the high demand section of the Don Mills bus, it's south of the 401. Many times I've transferred at Finch onto the 25A and in most cases only handfuls of people were on-board already.

I understand that Don Mills LRT may not be in the priority list, but when it is built, it should go to Steeles at least.

It could via a more practical alignment, on a guideway paralleling the 404. It has to divert east already to feed into Don Mills Stn so it may as well continue east then north to offer a non-stop express run to Seneca College from the subway.

I totally agree with you about Finch East: breaking up that route is a bad idea. Either keep it as bus, or transform to LRT all at once.

See, this is what sours me about the management of the TTC:
http://lrt.daxack.ca/blog/presentations/2009-06-02_display_boards.pdf

As you can see, on pg. 40 the report the Finch Hydro Corridor is listed as one of the TTC's Higher Order Transit Corridors, not Finch proper, again alluding to the levels of contradictory mixed-messages the TTC gives out to the public regarding where is and isn’t suitable for transit. See we could all at once transform all of Finch into a rapid bus service stretching all the way across the city had the millstone of FWLRT not presented itself. Do commuters rom Scarbrough really need to travel along Finch through North York if they're heading to/from Yonge-Finch subway? Seeing as the TTC has several branches along the route already, the way to make them more practical is to have run as a express limited to non-stop service from Yonge to Don Mills with local service picking up through Scarborough. This non-stop right-of-way is best achievable through the hydro corridor.

I don't why many people here still insist that we have limitless money to spend to extend light-rail lines everywhere mass transit is possibly needed in this city. What allegedly started out as an affordable solution is now running into the $15 billion arena. At least with busways through present non-trafficked corridors, our city is not itself being held at ransom (mass road closures, shops going out-of-business from lack of patronage during construction period, expropriations, etc.) nor are we holding external financiers at ransom (provincial and federal gov't) as BRT is both affordable and can be built in less time with ill-effect. And again, can't stress this enough, they are more easy to convert to light-rail in the future than building LRT from scratch, finding out that demand level for LRT truly wasn't there but by then the money can never be recouped once its spent.

 

[Fresh Start]

How about an LRT that leaves Scarborough Town Center and travels east on Ellesmere to UTSC and Centenial College and continue east on Ellesmere, then Kingston Rd. to Pickering Town Center.

We have this, only as Bus Rapid Transit and along a more practical alignment. Ellesmere west of Neilson isn't suitable for mass transit, the York Mills bus can handle that section. The major BRT discussion our group's been having in PM involves a grade-separated busway structure running from Scarborough Town Centre to Hwy 401 then parallelling the highway at-grade to Neilson Rd including a trenched busway station on the Centenial College grounds opposite the main entrance. From Neilson the the service splits two ways, north into Malvern and Morningside Hts; and south and east to serve Centenary, Ellesmere Campus, UTSC, Highland Creek then either run east into Pickering from Military/Hwy 2 or continue southwest to serve Morningside Mall/West Hill, Guidwood, Cliffcrest/Cliffside down to Victoria Park. It doesn't necessarily take billion$ nor rails to make a mass transit network, it only takes managing the services we already have properly and finding ways to make those services more efficient.

 

[junctionist]

The west end really could use some rapid transit. Subways just seem better at serving neighbourhoods than GO trains, which have always been built in favour of longer distance commuters. Having trains running every 5 minutes or less at most and stations built at busy intersections is a lot more preferable than frequent loud trains rumbling into what are often less central locations. It's also more of a challenge to handle surface route connections. I know the east end needs the DRL more, but it would be quite successful in the dense west end as well.

All in all, it's strange to see so much "priority" suburban subway expansion on the map and nothing for the very urban west end where transit is already very well used.

 

[kettal]

The west end really could use some rapid transit. Subways just seem better at serving neighbourhoods than GO trains, which have always been built in favour of longer distance commuters. Having trains running every 5 minutes or less at most and stations built at busy intersections is a lot more preferable than frequent loud trains rumbling into what are often less central locations. It's also more of a challenge to handle surface route connections. I know the east end needs the DRL more, but it would be quite successful in the dense west end as well.

All in all, it's strange to see so much "priority" suburban subway expansion on the map and nothing for the very urban west end where transit is already very well used.

can you be more specific with this? Where would such a subway go, up Jane street? Personally I don't see any specific corridor in the north west that would utilize a subway.

 

[Rainforest]

It's not warranted and too costly for the ridership it'll fetch. When you say south of Steeles, you really mean south of Finch which already has an overlapping of two local routes (10 and 25) plus VIVA Green. Truncating the bus route in fact means north of Sheppard service will run more frequently and without the long layovers at DM Stn that have become customary for the 25 bus. Don Mills (Fairview) Stn is the major transfer point, it's a good location to split the service. Think about it: Sheppard subway, SELRT, possible BRT along the DVP and partially grade-separated light-rail south of Sheppard along Don Mills would all converge at this point. Don Mills LRT doesn't target directly the major trip-generator in this area, Seneca College, meaning that northern expansion should follow the DVP, not Don Mills proper. Additional stations at Gordon Baker/McNicoll and Woodbine/Steeles would capture some major employment centres along the way. And just as the Hwy 400 curves westwards at Steeles so too could the LRT line, providing for a station north of Steeles at the Shops at Steeles Shopping Centre. If York Region then desires it, the line could continue up Leslie St to Hwy 7 then overlap with VIVA Purple til Warden before running via Apple Creek Blvd into the downtowns of Markham Town Ctr and Unionville.

...

It could via a more practical alignment, on a guideway paralleling the 404. It has to divert east already to feed into Don Mills Stn so it may as well continue east then north to offer a non-stop express run to Seneca College from the subway.

There are two issues here: 1) How far Don Mills LRT should reach; 2) What alignment it should use.

On the first point, I am positive that Don Mills LRT, if built at all, should be longer than just Eglinton to Sheppard. Artificial node change at Sheppard would be in the same category as artificial subway / LRT junction at Fairview proposed within Transit City.

In contrast, a continuous route from the DRL East terminus at Eglinton all the way to Steeles (even better, beyond Steeles) would create a shortcut to downtown. It will be faster and more convenient than switching to Sheppard subway at Fairview, traveling to Yonge, and transferring again.

Of course not everybody travels downtown, but a continuous route will reduce the transfer count for many other riders as well.

On the second point though, I am not so sure. It might actually be a good idea to thread a section of Don Mills LRT next to Hwy 404, rather than follow Don Mills median all the way.

I don't why many people here still insist that we have limitless money to spend to extend light-rail lines everywhere mass transit is possibly needed in this city.

I discussed the gweed123's map that already shows Don Mills LRT from Eglinton to Sheppard. If you invest in that segment anyway, then the additional 4 km needed to reach Steeles, all at surface, would cost about 4 x 70 = 280 million. This is hardly a deal-breaker, given that it adds to the non-priority section of your plan.

But if you believe that Don Mills LRT costs too much, then you would be better off with a continuous BRT line along Don Mills all the way north of Eglinton, rather than splitting Don Mills between LRT and bus.

 

[junctionist]

can you be more specific with this? Where would such a subway go, up Jane street? Personally I don't see any specific corridor in the north west that would utilize a subway.

I'm thinking of using corridors like King or Queen, through up Roncesvalles, Dundas, then up Keele to St. Clair or Eglinton where it would intercept that rapid transit line. I don't see any reason for it to go north of Eglinton, unless it one day it goes to the airport. King already has the busy streetcar and intensification potential, as well as the industrial lands of the Junction. The Eglinton connection would generate major ridership and significantly increase the utility of transit in the west end.

 

[Fresh Start]

I'm thinking of using corridors like King or Queen, through up Roncesvalles, Dundas, then up Keele to St. Clair or Eglinton where it would intercept that rapid transit line. I don't see any reason for it to go north of Eglinton, unless it one day it goes to the airport. King already has the busy streetcar and intensification potential, as well as the industrial lands of the Junction. The Eglinton connection would generate major ridership and significantly increase the utility of transit in the west end.

I like this line of thinking. Your description is somewhat similar to my vision for a DRL West extension, only instead of going right across the core along King/Queen with the DRL; route it by way of Spadina, Dundas/College and Dufferin cutting through Bloor at Lansdowne Stn followed by three stops through the Junction neighbourhood, a stop at Rogers Rd and a subway interlining at Eglinton whereby the DRL and Eglinton subways can share track space west to Pearson Int'l Airport. For Queen/King crosstown however I proposed a LRT premetro similar to Transit City's Eglinton Crosstown Line stretching from Humber Bay to Victoria Park/Kingston Rd whereby the central section of the ROW is grade-separated as well for a small portal in the east end of the Beaches. I think I'll throw up a map to explain things further:

 

[Dan416]

You've got to put the Bloor west extension back on the map. The extension to Sherway should really be part of Phase I and the extension to MCC part of Phase II. People in the West wouldn't support this plan as it's way east-oriented when the population of the GTA is west-oriented. Eglinton should also extend west to Hurontario in Phase II.

 

[leopetr]

You've got to put the Bloor west extension back on the map. The extension to Sherway should really be part of Phase I and the extension to MCC part of Phase II. People in the West wouldn't support this plan as it's way east-oriented when the population of the GTA is west-oriented. Eglinton should also extend west to Hurontario in Phase II.

What would you cut from Phase I of SOS to put the Sherway extension in? Also, why does the SOS plan need buy-in from Mississauga? Are Mississauga politicians seen as key allies? Or would buy-in from Etobicoke politicians be sufficient?

(Disclaimer: I'm not a member of SOS.)

 

[The Mad Navigator]

You've got to put the Bloor west extension back on the map. The extension to Sherway should really be part of Phase I and the extension to MCC part of Phase II. People in the West wouldn't support this plan as it's way east-oriented when the population of the GTA is west-oriented. Eglinton should also extend west to Hurontario in Phase II.

Extension to a mall? Really? Hell, why don't we continue extending the Spadina line until it goes to Vaughan Mills? Oh wait, Wonderland is close by! Let's extend further and place a stop there.

Subway service to MCC. Right. We need more suburban subways. If that isn't smart planning, then I don't know what is.
Anyway, You can seriously address this with better GO train service and the Hurontario LRT. If anything, an LRT on Hurontario would be a blessing in disguise and could potentially foster a tight knit community.