News   Jul 17, 2024
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Who's going to be the next Liberal leader?

Who's going to be the next Liberal leader?

  • Michael Ignatieff

    Votes: 16 33.3%
  • Gerard Kennedy

    Votes: 8 16.7%
  • John Manley

    Votes: 2 4.2%
  • Frank McKenna

    Votes: 9 18.8%
  • Bob Rae

    Votes: 9 18.8%
  • Justin Trudeau

    Votes: 3 6.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 1 2.1%

  • Total voters
    48
The NDP injects a social conscience that is much needed in this country, a conscience the Liberals and Conservatives will easily ignore without the existence of the NDP forcing them to face it.

I for one am thrilled they exist and never want to see a two party system here.
 
The NDP injects a social conscience that is much needed in this country, a conscience the Liberals and Conservatives will easily ignore without the existence of the NDP forcing them to face it.

I for one am thrilled they exist and never want to see a two party system here.

If we get this dream coalition on the left....that is essentially what we will have. Because once the coalition is in power, there will be a temptation for the Liberals and NDP to stop competing against each other. And should there ever be a real united left, I would suggest that the results will not be the paradise the NDP expects. Canadians are far more fiscally conservative than the left thinks. The thought of united but more leftist party at the helm after the struggle of the 90s balancing the books will keep any united left on the opposition benches for a long, long time.

As for the existence of the NDP...agreed. They do provide a much needed function in the political life of Canada. I may not vote for them, but I do support their existence.
 
In a weird way, this current political hullaballo sort of makes me want the Reform Party back. I wouldn't vote for them, but this crisis makes me understand more of where they were coming from when it came to Western Alienation and whatnot. I'm living in Toronto and feel like the people we supposedly elected are more obsessed with inside the Queensway antics than improving life for Canadians. It also shows how Eastern-centric (read, Quebec) government can be at the expense of the ROC. Lets be honest, the coalition was not representative of 'Canada' at all. I know it is legal, but the optics for anyone living outside Quebec (and the 416) is unmistakably bad. The Libs/Dips/Bloc all approached the issue as if they had a god given right to govern, that the Tories were an affront to civility. I never really got the whole "entitlements" thing until now.
 
Is that compared to how Harper thought he had a God given right to reign over Canada and do away with his opposition's chances to fund a campaign against him? LOL
 
Is that compared to how Harper thought he had a God given right to reign over Canada and do away with his opposition's chances to fund a campaign against him? LOL

It isn't Harper's fault the Liberals can't convince people to give them money.
 
LOL, so the Liberal party when it was at the height of power in the 1990's should have defunded not one but all parties opposing it?

The funding issue is something that can be discussed at length, but at this point its pretty obvious that the Conservatives wanted to play hardball and lost the game.

I'm tired of the whining that the coalition isn't a good idea, wasn't Harper's fault, or is the problem. The coalition didn't exist before Harper's crazy actions, so it can't rightfully get any blame for basically anything... The coalition worked even if it doesn't actually form a government. Harper is defeated if Iggy wants it him to be. The NDP and the Bloc aren't necessarily allies of the Liberal party, and I am certain Jack Layton won't be heartbroken if a new election is called. Duceppe certainly won't be heartbroken. The coalition performed its goal of weakening Harper and forcing him to back down from extremist positions.

I have to say if Iggy loses this battle and doesn't at the very least trigger a new spring election I may lose confidence in Iggy. Ignatieff better not sign the budget and allow the Harper government to stand after the tricks they've pulled.
 
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The funding issue is something that can be discussed at length, but at this point its pretty obvious that the Conservatives wanted to play hardball and lost the game.

Actually it would appear they won that game. Look at their popularity before the economic update and now. It is an unmistakable jump in popularity. You are right in that most people (myself included) did think the party financing thing was a reckless idea that probably should have been deferred for a better time. Whatever hubris Harper was guilty of though surely pales in comparison to the 'hardball' the Coalition tried to play (and lost, badly) following it. In the grand scheme of political maneuvers, the party financing bit was not that significant. Dion and crew abstained from far more important votes on the environment, budget, Afghan mission and much more. You can't possibly suggest that political subsidies are more important to Canada than, say, the Afghan mission. The point is, Dion/Layton had much more practical and less egocentric options available to them than trying to depose the current cabinet after being soundly rejected just 6 weeks earlier.

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The coalition worked even if it doesn't actually form a government. Harper is defeated if Iggy wants it him to be.

That option was always available to the Liberals. The coalition didn't change anything in that regard. In terms of political advantage though, there is no thinking party strategist who thinks the Libs/coalition has the upper hand here. It is an unthinkable opinion. They are polling at half of the Tories, they are deeply in debt, they have no get out to vote machine, they are tainted with the NDP, they are tainted with the Bloc, they are tainted with Dion, they are tainted with the 'Green Shift,' they have no policy platform, little experience in running a campaign, and virtually no support outside of the 416 & Montreal Island. Even Vancouver (!) is going Tory. Iggy has all but admitted that they have no hope of improving their lot in a spring election.
 
I think we should all be able to agree that whatever you think of political financing, changing it should only be done in standalone legislation as a consensus move. What next, change the electoral system (jerrymander the ridings) in the budget to benefit the Tories?
 
Actually it would appear they won that game. Look at their popularity before the economic update and now. It is an unmistakable jump in popularity. You are right in that most people (myself included) did think the party financing thing was a reckless idea that probably should have been deferred for a better time. Whatever hubris Harper was guilty of though surely pales in comparison to the 'hardball' the Coalition tried to play (and lost, badly) following it. In the grand scheme of political maneuvers, the party financing bit was not that significant. Dion and crew abstained from far more important votes on the environment, budget, Afghan mission and much more. You can't possibly suggest that political subsidies are more important to Canada than, say, the Afghan mission. The point is, Dion/Layton had much more practical and less egocentric options available to them than trying to depose the current cabinet after being soundly rejected just 6 weeks earlier.

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That option was always available to the Liberals. The coalition didn't change anything in that regard. In terms of political advantage though, there is no thinking party strategist who thinks the Libs/coalition has the upper hand here. It is an unthinkable opinion. They are polling at half of the Tories, they are deeply in debt, they have no get out to vote machine, they are tainted with the NDP, they are tainted with the Bloc, they are tainted with Dion, they are tainted with the 'Green Shift,' they have no policy platform, little experience in running a campaign, and virtually no support outside of the 416 & Montreal Island. Even Vancouver (!) is going Tory. Iggy has all but admitted that they have no hope of improving their lot in a spring election.

You don't seem to get it. In order for the NDP and Liberals to form a coalition, while simultaneously getting an agreement from the Bloc - a party itself that wants nothing to do with the Liberals or NDP - that they won't bring the government down, the only source that could bring that kind of cooperation together is an extreme act on the behalf of Harper.

Its really that simple. Anything else you use to explain it away is just nonsense IMO.

And Vancouver isn't going Tory. The some Liberal seats might go NDP or vice versa. Big ordeal. Woo hoo.. Some surprise.

Harper screwed up big time, and his response wasn't to admit defeat because of a mistake, it was to scream conspiracy against democracy and prorogue Parliament. That wreaks of a weak leader who has lost his standing within his own party. If Harper was remotely interested in working with Liberals, he would have initially come out and said that he made a mistake, would release a new budgetary proposal within hours, and cut the coalition before it had a chance to come together.

Harper didn't do so, and because of that he has proven that he isn't fit to lead Canada and he isn't fit to lead the Conservative Party of Canada.

Vancouver isn't "turning tory" ... the Conservative Party itself has a lot of members questioning Harper's leadership now while on contrast the Liberals just got a new vision and leader with a new energy for the party.

If you can't see that, then you're blind in political terms.

Any party whose leader screams the opposition is in an undemocratic conspiracy to overturn the government instead of admitting a mistake sounds more like desperation than leadership.

Even President Bush (this day and age) is more inclined to admit mistakes than Harper... Interesting.

Canadians aren't stupid. The natural reaction after the coalition was to ask "what the hell is this" and I expected temporary small surges in Conservative support quite frankly. But seeing how the Liberal party replaced its leader so quickly to prove it had the passion to carry through with serious governance showed the Liberals are ready to lead.

So now its the Conservatives who are dropping in the polls, and its up to you to read what poll you choose. Voters see through the b.s. now that they've had time to see that Harper ran away from the problem and started crying conspiracy rather than admit mistakes and be truthful.

And I also think voters in BC are coming around and realizing that the coalition was only between the Liberals and NDP, not the Bloc. The Bloc only agreed to support budgets and not vote on no-confidence for two years.
 
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And Vancouver isn't going Tory. The some Liberal seats might go NDP or vice versa. Big ordeal. Woo hoo.. Some surprise.

It may not be "going Tory" in a Calgary/Edmonton sense, but remember Ujjal's near-loss, or the close byelection call in Quadra. Or even the surprisingly strong third in Vancouver-Kingsway.

Come to think of it, Vancouver may be "going Tory" in the same way that Toronto is (think DVW, Eg-Law, the Etobicoke seats, even York Centre)

So now its the Conservatives who are dropping in the polls, and its up to you to read what poll you choose. Voters see through the b.s. now that they've had time to see that Harper ran away from the problem and started crying conspiracy rather than admit mistakes and be truthful.

It isn't so much the Conservatives dropping in the polls, as Harper dropping in Conservative estimation, and maybe Iggy patching up after Dion's ineptitude. But all in all, the Tories are still holding their own, considering...
 
It may not be "going Tory" in a Calgary/Edmonton sense, but remember Ujjal's near-loss, or the close byelection call in Quadra. Or even the surprisingly strong third in Vancouver-Kingsway.

Come to think of it, Vancouver may be "going Tory" in the same way that Toronto is (think DVW, Eg-Law, the Etobicoke seats, even York Centre)

Exactly. I didn't mean to suggest the Tories will sweep Vancouver and Toronto, but (from a Liberal perspective) this shouldn't even be an issue. Maybe if the Liberals were poised to make a big break through in Alberta or rural Ontario this could be excused as the give and take of politics, but this is a lot more give and a lot less take for the Liberals.

Just to add to that list; Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca only had the LPC squeak past the CPC with 80 votes, Burnaby - Douglas had the NDP win by less than 3% over the CPC, New Westminster-Coquitlam only had the NDP top the CPC by 3%. Only Newton-North Delta & Vancouver Center are 'safe' for the Liberals. The Libs only have Ralph Goodale & Winnipeg South Center in between Vancouver and Ottawa. It is pathetic. The Tories only need 10 more seats to get a majority...
 
What really needs to happen for the Conservative Party of Canada to succeed, not that its my desire to see that happen, they need to ditch Harper and find a more moderate leader. Harper is still a hardliner partisan from the Alliance who very much sees Alberta oil power first and Canada second. He can cover it up and run a good campaign all he wants, but the underlying truth is still there.

If the CPC gets a red tory from Atlantic Canada or maybe Ontario or Quebec on board they'll be more in tune to win ridings in other parts of Canada, because they don't need a former Alliance blow hard to lead the party anymore. Alberta and much of rural BC and the Piraries are going to vote Conservative anyway.

Harper is really history, he'll never get a majority now.
 
Whoaccio: a perfect storm for the Liberals didn't deliver the Harper majority. I don't think they are going to pull it off against Iggy and after this mandate under their belts. This recession is going to cost them a lot of their credibility.
 
agreed, and to add another point is people many times look to leadership rather than party identity.

Just look at the droves of former Liberals who now vote NDP. Jack Layton gave them a voice, he may be considered looney by many people, but he speaks to people's concerns.

He talks about how unfair bank fees are eating people alive. He talks about the dreams and aspirations of many. He talks about health care (imagine that), and other concerns. And yes, he also talks green. But its a full message at least.... Layton stands up and makes his voice heard on a number of topics.

What did Dion do? He talked green. Then he talked green. Then he talked green some more. It was such of a single-minded campaign.

Harper too talks about the concerns of many issues, despite being what I consider on the wrong side of most things. But he showed leadership and stood up. But he's also looking rather cowardly when the Conservatives as the Alliance were looking to make deals with the Bloc in the past. Its pretty obvious Harper is interested in politics first, Canada second. Every one of his arguments are so faulty they can be easily disputed.

Now he looks weak. Proroguing Parliament, saying the government is a conspiracy against him. He's lost his pedestal and he's just another looney bin screaming in the air. This just weeks after the Harper 'victory' in October.

The Liberals have had a leadership vacuum for years, and despite the fact I don't agree with Iggy on past Iraq statements and some other issues, he's apparently a leader who believes in doing whats needed to win.

That leadership will ensure a strong red Liberal rise across the nation IMO. Maybe not majority status just yet, but I could see a Liberal minority government with the help of the NDP and at least a desire from the Bloc to not vote against budgets or for a no confidence measure.

Atlantic Canada is going to be solidly red and I see a few ridings coming back to the Liberals in Quebec and Atlantic Canada. Ontario isn't ever turning solidly red again, the right is unified, but I think Harper lost several rural Ontario seats the moment Iggy was announced leader.

And the Liberal party showed it had the determination and leadership to change when it needed to change. People I think saw that as a strength issue.

So the bitter irony is that polls don't matter this moment in time. Liberals showed leadership by bringing together a coalition with the NDP to bring down Harper and they quickly replaced their unwanted Dion with Ignatieff, a leader who seems to connect with people. They did this quickly and efficiently, and that leadership is something people eat up and like.

I may not have preferred Iggy, but he has lit a new flame on fire and its burning red, not blue.

Ironically I think Layton and the Greens will lose the most in the spring election should it be called.
 
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Whoaccio: a perfect storm for the Liberals didn't deliver the Harper majority. I don't think they are going to pull it off against Iggy and after this mandate under their belts. This recession is going to cost them a lot of their credibility.

I don't know if I would call the '08 election a "perfect storm" for the Liberals as things are evidently more "perfect" now. Keep in mind the Liberals went into '08 in a slightly competitive position. Polling only had them ~5-6% back of the Tories. It is true that people are more receptive to Iggy than Dion (not really surprising) but it is important not to overstate this. Polling would suggest the majority of Canadians still oppose a coalition under Iggy. As to the economic crisis (i am skeptical to call it a recession, didn't our GDP expand last quarter?) it has no doubt sunk Harper's boat. It has probably sunk the Coalition's boat more though. Anybody to whom the term "shareholder equity" is relevant, will not vote for the NDP (and if they are anglo will be contemptuous of the BQ). Yes, Iggy isn't Dion, but he isn't Paul Martin (yet) either. More on that, even though I'm a supporter of Iggy I haven't heard one policy suggestion so far above "putting shovels in the ground." Maybe Canadians would be more welcoming if they knew where he stands without his incredibly long winded and academic answers.

I don't really think this is relevant though because I don't think Iggy will instigate an election. They are still in debt from their last leadership race let alone the election, they have no party machinery, they have no credible fund raising, no credible campaign staff, no credible policy platform, no real 'breakthrough areas' and an incredibly poor public perception at the moment. I think (and hope) Iggy can fix these, but it won't be a short process. A preemptive election would seriously undermine Iggy and just exacerbate all of these issue and reinforce the view that the CPC are, for the moment, Canada's natural governing party. If that wasn't even enough, they are still stuck in the coalition quagmire. All Harper needs is 10 seats and he has a majority.

10 seats that could easily swing CPC:

West Arctic: Short 700 votes
Esquimalt-Juan De Fuca: Short 100 votes
New Westminster-Coquitlam: Short 3%
Vancouver South: Short 20 votes
Burnaby Douglas: Short 800 votes
Edmonton Strathcona: Short 450 votes
Welland: Short 500 votes
Moncton-Riverview: Short 3%
Brampton West: Short 200 votes
Brampton Springdale: Short less than 1%

Boom, Tory majority without even going into the minefield that is Quebec.
 

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