When is enough transit infrastructure enough?

[OneCity]

Funny thing is that of the three components of the Relief Line (South, North, West), only one of them directly serves Downtown people.

The primary purpose of the Relief Line south is to relieve Bloor-Yonge, which will make it easier for people form the suburbs to transfer to Yonge Line

Relief Line North will allow for less crowded Yonge Line trips for suburban residents from the North, and greatly reduce commute times for suburban residents to the east.

Relief Line West will relieve Downtown’s streetcar system

It serves everyone. But the issue of crowding is far for impactful on Downtown commuters. Suburban residents will also soon have a choice to take GO at a TTC fare and will have an option to bypass the subway for direct downtown trips. Once some form of peace is found in this City we can focus on these lines in greater detail rather than debating transfers before Central Scarborough like has gone on too long. If the transfer were introduced that would have been the only way residents in our inner burbs would have oppose these Downtown lines when they received more attention. Thankfully that wont be an issue

 

[rbt]

Even if you built the DRL to Steeles, you will need to build another Yonge Line that will have to use Bay St south of Eglinton.

Not really. Yonge walkins are much lower than line capacity. We just need to make it less convenient for a bus rider to take the Yonge line than the other options.

TTC might split all East/West bus routes into 3 parts (west border to Spadina line, Spadina Line to DRL, DRL to east border). There is a strong chance they'll take the DRL or Spadina line by preference rather than transfer buses and continue on to Yonge to take the Yonge line. This configuration will dramatically increase churn (many many short trips) for the Yonge line as it now becomes a "last mile" use for most bus customers rather than the backbone of their trip.

Somewhat oddly, Yonge ridership could increase at the same time as congestion is reduced.

 

[rbt]

I wish more people would get behind the idea of a Yonge Express line--it seems like such a no-brainer.

Spending hundreds of illions per per year to bus people to Yonge so they can take a Yonge express? Why not save that that large bus operations cost and instead build a trunk-line closer to where people are starting their trips?

Yonge walkins are less than 1/3rd of Yonge subway ridership. We pay significant amounts to get the other 2/3rd to Yonge. Buses are flexible, send them elsewhere (like an upgraded Barrie line, Stouffville line, ...).

 

[ssiguy2]

Everything is going to depend on RER. If they were to spend the money and make all of the RER part of the GO system and have 100% fare integration and the same cost as the local transit fares in their respective cities and run RER every 5 minutes all day just like a subway, Toronto would add about 200km of subway to it`s entire network. Ridership on RER could easily surpass all the current subway lines put together. This is not uncommon in many cities that have, like Toronto, a relatively small subway system but large, expansive, and frequent suburban rail type system.

This is exactly what Sao Paulo did with it`s many suburban routes. They simply upgraded the lines to Metro standard in both infrastructure and service quality and it now carries over 3 million passengers a day. RER really is a subway in the making and it would get a lot more political support and public enthusiasm if it were simply referred to it as a subway expansion program.

 

[drum118]

Not really. Yonge walkins are much lower than line capacity. We just need to make it less convenient for a bus rider to take the Yonge line than the other options.

TTC might split all East/West bus routes into 3 parts (west border to Spadina line, Spadina Line to DRL, DRL to east border). There is a strong chance they'll take the DRL or Spadina line by preference rather than transfer buses and continue on to Yonge to take the Yonge line. This configuration will dramatically increase churn (many many short trips) for the Yonge line as it now becomes a "last mile" use for most bus customers rather than the backbone of their trip.

Somewhat oddly, Yonge ridership could increase at the same time as congestion is reduced.

If one looks at all the plan development on Yonge and within 3 blocks of it over the next 30 years, a 2nd Yonge line will be needed. That alone is why I have call for a 2nd Yonge Line by 2050 today. There is a lot of areas where no plans exist today, but will play a major role in more development.

I have said in the past that if the DRL is built to Steeles, it will take close to 30% of today riders off the Yonge Line, but will still see an increase close to 50% of new riders over time.

Again, not everyone using the Yonge Line is going downtown, but to various locations on it or getting to other routes. You even have reverse ridership.

You think ridership is bad today for Eglinton, give it another 10 years where it will be worse once 50% of new development plan for the area is on line. Add in the increase of ridership from the Crosstown Line, going to be a nightmare.

If you think walk-in riders is low, why did they have to build the North York Centre Station that see over 25,000 with no buses lines feeding it????

Eglinton is going to see a major change once the Crosstown Line opens over time and it will have an impact on the Spadina, Yonge and Future DRL line. The DRL will itself see an impact on its line once built. Spadina will also see an impact on it from both walk-in, but mostly bus routes feeding the line to the point it will start to see Yonge current problems down the road.

With business changing locations from time to time, or the type of business they are, riders will/could have to travel from one side of the city to the other, go north/south to get to work.

One can look at the Wilson Station to see where a large walk-in ridership is going to come from with-in a block and a haft from it. You got 3 towers now, 3 under construction 3-5 more in planing stage for one area alone.

If the Bloor Line gets extended one stop to the west, it will open a flood gate of new development that been on the books for decades to the point the Bloor section will be bad as Yonge and why I call for the DRL to go to Jane and up it.

 

[drum118]

Everything is going to depend on RER. If they were to spend the money and make all of the RER part of the GO system and have 100% fare integration and the same cost as the local transit fares in their respective cities and run RER every 5 minutes all day just like a subway, Toronto would add about 200km of subway to it`s entire network. Ridership on RER could easily surpass all the current subway lines put together. This is not uncommon in many cities that have, like Toronto, a relatively small subway system but large, expansive, and frequent suburban rail type system.

This is exactly what Sao Paulo did with it`s many suburban routes. They simply upgraded the lines to Metro standard in both infrastructure and service quality and it now carries over 3 million passengers a day. RER really is a subway in the making and it would get a lot more political support and public enthusiasm if it were simply referred to it as a subway expansion program.

That is why I have call for the SRT to be converted to EMU's as per the plan extension in place of the one stop subway and the plan LRT conversion that I was once pushing. It offer a one seat ride from STC to Union in a 3rd of the time if they use the subway or more.

If we can build part of the RER as a Tram-Train line like I call for back in 2004, you could have branch lines coming off the current RR corridors to service various areas within Toronto and the GTHA. All the RR corridors needs to be the Backbone for Transit.

 

[rbt]

If one looks at all the plan development on Yonge and within 3 blocks of it over the next 30 years, a 2nd Yonge line will be needed. That alone is why I have call for a 2nd Yonge Line by 2050 today. There is a lot of areas where no plans exist today, but will play a major role in more development.

Not even close. Cities like Moscow manage to have 80+ high-rise buildings (30 floor) per suburban station and have capacity to spare (far more than Yonge today). They also have a much higher percentage population taking transit. At our current ratio, our population concentration per station can be even higher.

The big difference is it's almost entirely walkins (some neighbourhood circulator routes, but not many). We can easily triple the population within 2km of every Yonge line station before walkins cause the line to hit capacity and very few areas see that kind of development coming in the next 30 years.

There is zero need to double Yonge (at Yonge) when 70% of the riders are brought in by bus.

Perhaps in 2100 we will want a Bayview/Mount Pleasant or Bathurst/Spadina line; still not doubling down on Yonge; that's more like a 2150 problem than a 2050 problem.

 

[drum118]

Not even close. Cities like Moscow manage to have 80+ high-rise buildings (30 floor) per suburban station and have capacity to spare (far more than Yonge today). They also have a much higher percentage population taking transit. At our current ratio, our population concentration per station can be even higher.

The big difference is it's almost entirely walkins (some neighbourhood circulator routes, but not many). We can easily triple the population within 2km of every Yonge line station before walkins cause the line to hit capacity and very few areas see that kind of development coming in the next 30 years.

There is zero need to double Yonge (at Yonge) when 70% of the riders are brought in by bus.

Perhaps in 2100 we will want a Bayview/Mount Pleasant or Bathurst/Spadina line; still not doubling down on Yonge; that's more like a 2150 problem than a 2050 problem.

By right, you are comparing apples to oranges. The 2 cities are so different in all respect, including how they are run. There is about 600 years different between the 2 cities, with Moscow having a higher density per km compare to Toronto. Moscow is 2,511 km² with 11,541,000 = 4596.176822/ km² compare to Toronto 630.2 km² with 2,826,498 = 4486.504762, with most having no high order transit for them. Moscow has 226.7 mi (6.992m/day) with 30,842.523 riders/mi while Toronto has 47.8 mi with 19,889.12134 riders/mi daily.

How Toronto was build and form are different from Moscow as well. You are dealing with a number of Toronto's when first form to what it is today. How many mergers has Toronto seen compare to Moscow???

None of the stations south Lawrence can't handle today ridership nor where they built for that number in the first place. They can't be expanded.

The shortest platform for Moscow is 509 for 6 car train that only operate on a few lines, while are mostly 8 cars with a few 7.

You can't compare what exist today to what the future holds to say 2150 is when a 2nd Yonge Line is needed.

If Toronto was build and run like Moscow, Toronto would have more subways and miles in a smaller area.

The big different between Toronto and Moscow is stations spacing, with most Moscow stations being about 1.7 km apart.

Moscow has 50 streetcar lines, while we have a 11. It also used to have 370 miles of trolleybus lines, but being scrap with a 2020 deadline.

Having high density around stations is a must, but not welcome by locals and council.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

But the issue of crowding is far for impactful on Downtown commuters

No it’s not. Downtown residents use transit less frequently than people from the suburbs coming into downtown. More specifically, just 30% of downtown residents use transit, while 50% of all trips into downtown are by transit. People downtown have options to avoid transit, such as biking or walking.

 

[BurlOak]

If one looks at all the plan development on Yonge and within 3 blocks of it over the next 30 years, a 2nd Yonge line will be needed. That alone is why I have call for a 2nd Yonge Line by 2050 today. There is a lot of areas where no plans exist today, but will play a major role in more development.

What is more expensive, build a new transit line underneath the existing Yonge line - including stations under stations. OR
Building a new transit line under Bathurst, with line and stations at whatever depth is convenient?

Currently, we have the DRL coming across Queen. This new line could come across King. If Union GO gets too busy, it could be doubled under Wellington.

The DRL North would siphon off riders from the East. The Bathurst line would siphon off riders from the West.
It allows better redundancy in case of power failure, flooding, medical emergency, terrorist act - compared to 2 lines directly under each other.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Something nobody wants to admit is that the Yonge line cannot handle riders from York Region coming in.

There is adequate capacity on the Yonge line to serve a 2km radius around each station. Once the RL-North is built, the Yonge line will not have to deal with people coming from beyond that 2km radius in the east as they will transfer onto the RL-North.

The problem is the 15,000pphd that arrive at Finch Station from destinations to the north each morning.

That 15,000pphd is a low-ball estimate too, considering whats planned in York Region and the impacts of a Yonge North subway to Richmond Hill.

 

[ssiguy2]

RER is the key but unfortunately Torontonians are not very enthusiastic and they have good reason not to be. So far the only new rail service Metrolinx has introduced since it`s inception is the UPX.........an expensive diesel train with a paltry 9000 riders a day which is a miniscule 0.3% of total GTA transit trips and it cost them %500 million to do it. Considering the amount of increased peak and especially non-peak service that GO rail has added over the last couple of years, the results have been truly pathetic.

RER should become a true grade separated subway/Metro system with local fare rates, 100% fare integration, and subway frequency and if they did it, ridership would soar towards a million passengers a day within a decade. The demand is certainly there but GO`s service frequency is too poor and the fares vastly overpriced especially for shorter trips. If done right RER could be a stellar success and truly get the GTA moving again but if done poorly then it will be the biggest waste of $13 billion known to man.

 

[Isotack]

Funny thing is that of the three components of the Relief Line (South, North, West), only one of them directly serves Downtown people.

The primary purpose of the Relief Line south is to relieve Bloor-Yonge, which will make it easier for people form the suburbs to transfer to Yonge Line

Relief Line North will allow for less crowded Yonge Line trips for suburban residents from the North, and greatly reduce commute times for suburban residents to the east.

Relief Line West will relieve Downtown’s streetcar system

Only downtown people matter. Don't you know that?

 

[Leo_Chan]

Only downtown people matter. Don't you know that?

Do you include people who commute Downtown as "downtown people", or only people who live AND work in Downtown? Because people who live and work in Downtown rarely use the subway.

 

[ndawgg]

As a "downtown person" who lives at Yonge and College I'm so sick of all of this bullshit. The crowding isn't my issue. I can walk/bike to work. Things like the DRL will alleviate crowding for the suburbanites that use the line to come downtown. So stop saying this is for us. It's not. It benefits people outside of the core way more than it benefits me.

But by all means, everyone keep pushing for those subways where there isn't ridership, so that we can funnel more people onto the over-capacity Yonge line that you have to jam into for a crush-load ride all the way downtown. /rant

(This isn't directed at any one person. I realize that some people in this thread are saying the same thing and some are being funny/sarcastic...I'm just sick of the narrative that gets thrown at us "downtown people" lol)