What prevents us from adopting a distance-based subway fare system?

[RedRocket191]

Here's how it works on GO:

You tap on when you board, and it charges you a base fare of $4.20. When you tap off, it charges you again depending on how far you traveled. For a trip to Brampton the charge is another $2.19. When you board the second bus, no new base fare is charged. When you leave the second bus, the difference is charged. Here's the breakdown:

Bus 1 Leave Union: $-4.20
Bus 1 Arrive Brampton $-2.19
Bus 2 Leave Brampton $-0.00
Bus 2 Arrive Orangeville $-1.65

After a set number of trips (35, 40, whatever you like) you become free until the end of the month.

If you're going to have fare by distance you need to have a] A smart card or open payment that tracks you and b] a way for people to tap out when they are leaving the system.

 

[kkgg7]

Here's how it works on GO:

You tap on when you board, and it charges you a base fare of $4.20. When you tap off, it charges you again depending on how far you traveled. For a trip to Brampton the charge is another $2.19. When you board the second bus, no new base fare is charged. When you leave the second bus, the difference is charged. Here's the breakdown:

Bus 1 Leave Union: $-4.20
Bus 1 Arrive Brampton $-2.19
Bus 2 Leave Brampton $-0.00
Bus 2 Arrive Orangeville $-1.65

After a set number of trips (35, 40, whatever you like) you become free until the end of the month.

If you're going to have fare by distance you need to have a] A smart card or open payment that tracks you and b] a way for people to tap out when they are leaving the system.

bingo. that's the only way that makes sense.
charging everyone $2.5 is so stupid.

 

[kkgg7]

I wonder whether we should have fare by distance on buses as well. GO already does this with the Presto card using GPS. Some TTC buses go a long way, taking the #54 bus from Yonge to Mount Pleasant costs the TTC far less than taking it to Yonge to Rouge Hill.

buses can do that too? that's perfect then. You pay base + distance on the bus as well, except that when you transfer, you pay the base fee only once.
Yes, some buses runs 20 km, and you can't change someone the same as one who takes for 5 minutes.

but how to implement on buses? you don't need to tap your card to get off. And even if you can force everyone to, one can always cheat by tapping a lot earlier before he actually gets off, right?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

kkgg7:

Monthly passes also have one more drawback: they encourage unnecessary trips (and overcrowding). Someone might walk from Dundas to College in 8 minutes, but the possession of the monthly pass will encourage him to take the subway for only 1 stop. If he needs to pay $1, you may choose to just walk.

If the conditions are overcrowded, it is questionable that many will bother with the hassle of a) walking to the station b) waiting for the train c) get jammed into a packed train OR having to wait for the next train or two and d) walking back out from the destination station to wherever one is going solely on the basis of the fact that they held an unlimited pass. You don't save any time (in fact you might lose some) and the trip certainly won't be a pleasant one. Just because something is free in a monetary sense doesn't mean other factors aren't important drivers of human behaviour.

AoD

 

[noctis]

there is no transfer. Actually, transfers are largely abandoned by much of the world.
when you need to transfer, you tap again. For example, you exited the subway and takes the bus, you tap your card at the reading machine on the bus, which knows you are making a transfer, and will adjust your fare accordingly (compared with you just board the bus from home).

Monthly passes do provide a lot of convenience, but they also overcharge you big time. For example, you go for a vacation for 3 weeks in July, and you still pay that $121. A distance based fare plus a monthly cap works best for passengers.

Monthly passes also have one more drawback: they encourage unnecessary trips (and overcrowding). Someone might walk from Dundas to College in 8 minutes, but the possession of the monthly pass will encourage him to take the subway for only 1 stop. If he needs to pay $1, you may choose to just walk.

I see, I think it's beginning to make sense now. So let me make up a scenario and u tell me if this makes sense.

1. I get on at stop A - tap on, no fare is deducted
2. I get off at stop B (5 km later) - tap off, fare is calculated based on distance, so in your case: 0.80 + 0.02*5 = $0.90 deducted
3. I get on at stop C (which supposed to be a transfer from stop B) - tap on, no money is deducted
4. I get off at stop D (end of my trip, 10 km later) - tap off, 0.80 + 0.02*10 = $1.00 deducted; but if I had a transfer, I would not have to pay anything

 

[TOareaFan]

bingo. that's the only way that makes sense.
charging everyone $2.5 is so stupid.

And when the TTC has Presto (2015, I think) they may implement such a system.

 

[RedRocket191]

I see, I think it's beginning to make sense now. So let me make up a scenario and u tell me if this makes sense.

1. I get on at stop A - tap on, no fare is deducted
2. I get off at stop B (5 km later) - tap off, fare is calculated based on distance, so in your case: 0.80 + 0.02*5 = $0.90 deducted
3. I get on at stop C (which supposed to be a transfer from stop B) - tap on, no money is deducted
4. I get off at stop D (end of my trip, 10 km later) - tap off, 0.80 + 0.02*10 = $1.00 deducted; but if I had a transfer, I would not have to pay anything

Not quite. Look at this example:

Bus 1 Leave Union: $-4.20 <--- base fare that everyone pays
Bus 1 Arrive Brampton $-2.19 <--- additional fare for travelling to Brampton
Bus 2 Leave Brampton $-0.00 <--- no new base fare because this is a transfer. If it is outside the transfer window then a new base fare is charged
Bus 2 Arrive Orangeville $-1.65 <--- additional fare for travelling to Orangeville

 

[TOareaFan]

buses can do that too? that's perfect then. You pay base + distance on the bus as well, except that when you transfer, you pay the base fee only once.
Yes, some buses runs 20 km, and you can't change someone the same as one who takes for 5 minutes.

but how to implement on buses? you don't need to tap your card to get off. And even if you can force everyone to, one can always cheat by tapping a lot earlier before he actually gets off, right?

It works on GO buses because there is only one door and you have to pass the device and the driver as you exit the bus.....systems like Mississauga and Brampton who use Presto just have you tap on each bus as you get on....flat fare for first bus and every bus after that during the two hour window is a free "transfer" but you still tap.

 

[noctis]

Not quite. Look at this example:

Bus 1 Leave Union: $-4.20 <--- base fare that everyone pays
Bus 1 Arrive Brampton $-2.19 <--- additional fare for travelling to Brampton
Bus 2 Leave Brampton $-0.00 <--- no new base fare because this is a transfer. If it is outside the transfer window then a new base fare is charged
Bus 2 Arrive Orangeville $-1.65 <--- additional fare for travelling to Orangeville

Ah I see. Makes perfect sense now! Thanks! So yea, Do u guys think it would be hard for the TTC to implement something like this and work with Presto? Do we really need 4 to 5 years to figure this out?

 

[noctis]

Here is a fare by distance chart I took from the Taipei MRT Wikipedia site. I think we can use something like this too. What do you guys think?

By the way, this is in New Taiwanese Dollars and $1 CDN is roughly $30 NTD

 

[k10ery]

kkg: fixed and variable cost is good, but here's another little concept: elasticity of demand.

Folks living downtown get good service from TTC and they don't have or don't want to use their cars. They're a captive market. You can charge them too much and they will still ride the Rocket, thereby creating operating profit for TTC. Folks living in the inner suburbs do ride longer and cost more, but because their service is worse they are more price sensitive. If you charge them more, some of them will stop taking the TTC and get back in their cars. Then fare by distance might not be a winner for TTC or for congestion.

kkgg7:
Just because something is free in a monetary sense doesn't mean other factors aren't important drivers of human behaviour.
AoD

AoD: There's two ways to ration demand at rush hour: higher prices, or by irritating folks with overcorwding so that some take their cars. Which do you think is better?

We should certainly have cheap Metropasses that are not valid at rush hour, once the technology allows it.

 

[Palma]

To make it more clear for those who don't know much about finance and the fixed/variable cost thing, let me give another hypothetical case:

If you think once you board the train, it doesn't matter whether you travel 1 km or 20 km, imagine nobody ever travels more than 7km from Union, where Eglington station is. The fact is, there is no such need to build the subway extending any further north of Eglington in the first place. The constructing cost will be probably 30% lower, and all the track maintenance costs will be a lot lower as well.

Undeniably long commuters take more resources, right? It is wrong to assume as long as I enter the train, whether I am going to Finch or just College station doesn't matter. We all should pay the same fare. Chances are the College St passenger never need the subway to go as far as Finch, or STC, or use the service 2 times each year. Do you think it is still fair to charge him the same price ttc charge those who go from Finch or STC to King station twice every single working day? Right now, it is subsidizing the Finch/STC person, every day, every time he pays the $2.5 fare. That's just wrong and he doesn't deserve it. He might be someone making $20000 a year, or even a UofT student who has no income at all.

You make perfect sense with all your posts and I certainly can follow the calculations. Its on;y the people that need to use the system to travel the furthest that will pretend that it does not make sense or is unfair.

 

[kkgg7]

kkg: fixed and variable cost is good, but here's another little concept: elasticity of demand.

Folks living downtown get good service from TTC and they don't have or don't want to use their cars. They're a captive market. You can charge them too much and they will still ride the Rocket, thereby creating operating profit for TTC. Folks living in the inner suburbs do ride longer and cost more, but because their service is worse they are more price sensitive. If you charge them more, some of them will stop taking the TTC and get back in their cars. Then fare by distance might not be a winner for TTC or for congestion.

This I don't agree with you. It is true that folks (like me) choose not to own a car and prefer taking transit, however, that really doesn't mean we are not sensitive to price. On the contrary, our price elasticity is high because, as you know, downtown is not that big, and if you charge me high to go from Queen to Bloor, I'd just walk, or bike, whenever possible. It is when I have to travel long distance that my elasticity becomes much lower, as I have few alternative.

For the suburb folks, do you have high elasticity? I don't think. Unless they travel from on suburb to another, driving is a better idea. Actually I think driving make more sense than taking those horrible buses. However, if they come to Bay/King to work, do they still show high elasticity? no. what will then do? Drive along the DVP everyday for 1.5 hours, then park their car for $15 a day, and drive for another 1.5 hours back home? Don't kid ourselves, the poorer one is, the more he is dependent on transit (therefore low elasticity). For high income people, it doesn't matter. They prefer driving and avoid the crowd and uncontrollable schedule and don't care paying more for parking. Honestly, ask around, even ttc monthly pass becomes $150 next month, 95% of those who commute from the suburbs to downtown for work will still take the subway. No question about it. It is the downtowners who don't HAVE to take the subway for short distance travel. Toronto downtown is not that big. To bike from Parliament to Bathurst is a matter of 15 minutes. I myself regularly walk 20+ minutes to avoid paying $2.5.

In the end, it is not whether the downtowners or suburbanites have higher elasticity. It is those who live in the suburbs but have to get to downtown for work everyday that have the lowest elasticity. Even if fare rises to $5 per trip, it is $200 a month, still considerably cheaper than owning and maintaining a car (insurance $200-300, gas $200+? parking $250, plus cost of the car and maintenance etc). This is why TTC should ask them to pay higher fare, aka their fair share and it will most likely bring in more profit.

Personally, it is not that I can't afford ttc fare. I just think it is unfair against short commuters. If the fare rises to say, $3 per trip, it stops making sense to me and I will just cut my trips outside my walking/biking distance. Honestly, there is hardly anything in my life that I need but can't get between Queen st and College st. I hardly need to take the ttc for more than one round trip per week. Why do I ever have to go to Scarborough Town Center or North York Center? What's there that downtown doesn't? Almost nothing. If fare becomes $5, I can choose not to take it at all if I like and my life won't be affected much.

 

[kkgg7]

You make perfect sense with all your posts and I certainly can follow the calculations. Its only the people that need to use the system to travel the furthest that will pretend that it does not make sense or is unfair.

thanks. They think it is fair only when they don't need to pay their fair share and let others subsidize them.

We are all adults, right? Paying more for longer distance is like paying more for 2 pounds of beef than one pound. Nothing is more fair. Whoever saying it is unfair is being selfish. You get to live in bigger space while living farther away (usually at much lower housing price). Now you pay a bit more for commuting to where you need to go as a result of your own choice, what's to complain here? If everyone lives south of Eglington, there is no need to have such a long subway going all the way to Finch in the first place. It is those who travel the furthest that make the public transit cost this high, and they refuse to pay higher fare? How ridiculous is that!

I myself pay $5 on average a week for taking ttc, and usually I buy a day pass, sharing with a friend and make multiple trips for various errands. I absolutely refuse to subsidize long commuters who also pay only $2.5 from the middle of nowhere to downtown. Because of those people, Toronto transit nowadays is all about extending to further suburban areas, rather improving the core area.

 

[Palma]

I agree also with the price elasticity issue. Even before i read your post about choosing to walk if TTC fares rise too much I was thinking the same thing when I read the other poster saying if you live downtown the TTC can charge whatever they want and those people will pay because they have no choice. He obviously does not know the downtown area very well. Living downtown one has many options and that includes waling pretty much everywhere, but as you said if you live in the suburbs and need to go downtown - well its either pay whatever the TTC wants to charge or take the car and pay the higher parking rates + high gas prices + longer commuting time and I am hoping soon they will add a congestion charge/tolls to that equation.