What prevents us from adopting a distance-based subway fare system?

[kkgg7]

The current technology already allows the fare system to accurate calculate how many km you have travelled when exiting the station, so what prevents us from adopting a purely distance based fare system? I don't even think the staged (zoned) fare system is right, as it is still quite arbitrary and those who need to just crossed the zone cutoff line always lose.

It is unarguably fair to charge each passenger the exact distance he/she travelled. For example, it is wrong to charge some traveling from Don Mills to Kipling and one from Queen to St George, simply because the first person takes 10 times the resources the second does.

Assuming TTC's operating expenses are composed of 1) fixed cost 2) variable cost. it should be pretty straight forward to develop a formula on fare. Each passengers pays a fixed base fee to cover fixed cost and a variable fee based on distance travelled

Fare = base fee ($) + distance travelled X per km charge $/km

For example: if base fee is $0.8 and per km charge is $0.02/km (only for illustration purposes, but the numbers do make some sense here)

if you travel from King to Dundas, you pay 0.8 + 0.02*0.85 = $0.9
if you travel from King to Bloor/Yonge, you pay 0.8+ 0.02X2.4km = $1.3
if you travel from King to Eglington, you pay 0.8 + 0.02X6.7km = $2.1
if you travel from King to Finch, you pay 0.8 + 0.02 X 12.8km = $3.3

I think it is fair to all passengers, and the third person shouldn't complain about paying 2.5 times the fare the first one does, when he travelled 5 times the distance.

this, however, may be difficult to apply on buses, but that's a different topic, although not entirely impossible. Surface transit costs are much lower, and a flat fee probably suffices (you get discount if transfer from subway to bus/streetcars).
Put subsidy aside, ttc's shortfall is largely due to not charging enough those who regularly travel 15km+ every day, honestly.

You can reduce the fare to "encourage" taking transit instead of driving, but it is unfair to impose the cost to short distance passengers.

 

[TOareaFan]

The current technology already allows the fare system to accurate calculate how many km you have travelled when exiting the station, so what prevents us from adopting a purely distance based fare system? I don't even think the staged (zoned) fare system is right, as it is still quite arbitrary and those who need to just crossed the zone cutoff line always lose.

It is unarguably fair to charge each passenger the exact distance he/she travelled. For example, it is wrong to charge some traveling from Don Mills to Kipling and one from Queen to St George, simply because the first person takes 10 times the resources the second does.

Assuming TTC's operating expenses are composed of 1) fixed cost 2) variable cost. it should be pretty straight forward to develop a formula on fare. Each passengers pays a fixed base fee to cover fixed cost and a variable fee based on distance travelled

Fare = base fee ($) + distance travelled X per km charge $/km

For example: if base fee is $0.8 and per km charge is $0.02/km (only for illustration purposes, but the numbers do make some sense here)

if you travel from King to Bloor/Yonge, you pay 0.8+ 0.02X2.4km = $1.3
if you travel from King to Eglington, you pay 0.8 + 0.02X6.7km = $2.1
if you travel from King to Finch, you pay 0.8 + 0.02 X 12.8km = $3.3

I think it is fair to all passengers, and the third person shouldn't complain about paying 2.5 times the fare the first one does, when he travelled 5 times the distance.

this, however, may be difficult to apply on buses, but that's a different topic, although not entirely impossible. Surface transit costs are much lower, and a flat fee probably suffices (you get discount if transfer from subway to bus/streetcars).
Put subsidy aside, ttc's shortfall is largely due to not charging enough those who regularly travel 15km+ every day, honestly.

You can reduce the fare to "encourage" taking transit instead of driving, but it is unfair to impose the cost to short distance passengers.

Few questions and one possible answer to the question posed by the title of thread:

Q1. How does he current system know how to handle this? When I put a token in a slot, no one asks me how far I m traveling.....when I buy a monthly pass no one asks me to breakdown the distance of each trip I plan to take with it.

Q2. How is the Don Mills to Kipling passenger using 10X the resources as the Q ueen to St. George passenger? If he wasn't on the train to kipling would it not be going? Would there not be the same infrastructure and staffing at each station he uses regardless of distance travelled?

Q3. If you think such a system is so logical and fair, why stop at charging the guy traveling 5 times the distance 2.5 times the fare? If you are so committed to fare by distance why not go all the way and charge him the 5 times he should pay? Is the answer that you realize you could not sell that to the public?

Nw for the possible answer.....perhaps people perceive that fares would increase for them than those who honk they will go down?

 

[kkgg7]

Few questions and one possible answer to the question posed by the title of thread:

Q1. How does he current system know how to handle this? When I put a token in a slot, no one asks me how far I m traveling.....when I buy a monthly pass no one asks me to breakdown the distance of each trip I plan to take with it.

Q2. How is the Don Mills to Kipling passenger using 10X the resources as the Q ueen to St. George passenger? If he wasn't on the train to kipling would it not be going? Would there not be the same infrastructure and staffing at each station he uses regardless of distance travelled?

Q3. If you think such a system is so logical and fair, why stop at charging the guy traveling 5 times the distance 2.5 times the fare? If you are so committed to fare by distance why not go all the way and charge him the 5 times he should pay? Is the answer that you realize you could not sell that to the public?

Nw for the possible answer.....perhaps people perceive that fares would increase for them than those who honk they will go down?

1) I am talking about presto, not the dumb token system.
2) and 3) 10x is a random number. I recognize infrastructure/staff in the fixed cost part, didn't I? Which is why I am not charging the Finch passenger 5 times the fare as the Dundas passenger, It is in fact less than 2.5 times. However, longer commutes do consume more energy and other resources. it is not like the second you board the train, it doesn't matter any more. Why do you think train ticket to Montreal is cheaper than Vancouver? The same idea. not hard to understand. distance fee accounts for the variable cost, which depends on distance.

I guess you don't have much knowledge in finance. In operating any factory/company, the operating costs consist of two parts: fixed cost and variable cost. Fixed cost is the same no matter how much you produce, 1 or 1000, the variable cost depends on quantity.

For example you need 10 times flour to produced 10 bread compare with 1 bread, so variable cost is 10 times, however, the fixed cost is the same - whatever machine you use.

 

[kkgg7]

To make it more clear for those who don't know much about finance and the fixed/variable cost thing, let me give another hypothetical case:

If you think once you board the train, it doesn't matter whether you travel 1 km or 20 km, imagine nobody ever travels more than 7km from Union, where Eglington station is. The fact is, there is no such need to build the subway extending any further north of Eglington in the first place. The constructing cost will be probably 30% lower, and all the track maintenance costs will be a lot lower as well.

Undeniably long commuters take more resources, right? It is wrong to assume as long as I enter the train, whether I am going to Finch or just College station doesn't matter. We all should pay the same fare. Chances are the College St passenger never need the subway to go as far as Finch, or STC, or use the service 2 times each year. Do you think it is still fair to charge him the same price ttc charge those who go from Finch or STC to King station twice every single working day? Right now, it is subsidizing the Finch/STC person, every day, every time he pays the $2.5 fare. That's just wrong and he doesn't deserve it. He might be someone making $20000 a year, or even a UofT student who has no income at all.

 

[TOareaFan]

1) I am talking about presto, not the dumb token system.
2) and 3) 10x is a random number. I recognize infrastructure/staff in the fixed cost part, didn't I? Which is why I am not charging the Finch passenger 5 times the fare as the Dundas passenger, It is in fact less than 2.5 times. However, longer commutes do consume more energy and other resources. it is not like the second you board the train, it doesn't matter any more. Why do you think train ticket to Montreal is cheaper than Vancouver? The same idea. not hard to understand. distance fee accounts for the variable cost, which depends on distance.

I guess you don't have much knowledge in finance. In operating any factory/company, the operating costs consist of two parts: fixed cost and variable cost. Fixed cost is the same no matter how much you produce, 1 or 1000, the variable cost depends on quantity.

For example you need 10 times flour to produced 10 bread compare with 1 bread, so variable cost is 10 times, however, the fixed cost is the same - whatever machine you use.

So you meant future system not current system....perhaps some modified fare by distance system will come with FTC implementing presto?

You may be surprised to know how much I know about finance. I think, for example, I know that very few costs vary by the individual passenger's distance travelled.

I am not opposed to fare by distance (just thought I'd clear that up early). In fact, somewhat ironically, we hated 905 commuters already accept and use the system each time we impose our presence on Toronto via a GO trip. I just thought you had started a thread asking for suggested reasons why we don't have one on the TTC.....and I was suggesting the current payment system could not handle it and no politician wants to try and sell such a system.

 

[LordWanker]

Nice to see the exile has not taken the edge off your bluntness, kkgg7.
The catch to your proposed distance-based fare would be how honest would the rider be when purchasing their ticket and actual enforcement of it ( $$$ to do so...will that be fixed or variable?). Let me put it this way, look at the existing cleanliness of the subway stations and cars. Is that a sign of an honest and caring patron?
Considering the general unruly to hostile attitude that I've seen from the TTC masses, there will either be a high turn-over rate or costly salaries for the fare enforcers.

 

[Asmegin]

When I lived in Japan, I thought they way they did it was perfect.

You buy a ticket at the machine for say Station A to Station K. Your ticket will open the gate at Station A and Station K only. If you get off at Station M instead, there are machines set up before the gates to correct the fare.

Every 2 stations went up ~20 cents.

 

[TOareaFan]

Was just thinking about this......if the TTC is interested in a Preto based distance-fare system, they should decide before they install/implement Presto......wouldn't such a system double the number of Presto machines needed?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Presumably all the turnstyles will be equipped with Presto and I don't think it matters which way one access it - as long as the actual system can handle distance calculations. Probably more of a programming issue than a hardware one?

AoD

 

[TOareaFan]

Presumably all the turnstyles will be equipped with Presto and I don't think it matters which way one access it - as long as the actual system can handle distance calculations. Probably more of a programming issue than a hardware one?

AoD

They would, I guess, have to install them differently than they have to date. Right now the ones on the subway ar only easily tapable from the outside the fare paid area (ie as you go in)

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

It should be integrated with the turnstyle - and located on the top except for the accessible entrance. Ergonomic issue. A bigger one might be the fact there is no exit control in the existing turnstyles and that might have to be retrofitted in. Or just get new ones.

AoD

 

[kkgg7]

Nice to see the exile has not taken the edge off your bluntness, kkgg7.
The catch to your proposed distance-based fare would be how honest would the rider be when purchasing their ticket and actual enforcement of it ( $$$ to do so...will that be fixed or variable?). Let me put it this way, look at the existing cleanliness of the subway stations and cars. Is that a sign of an honest and caring patron?
Considering the general unruly to hostile attitude that I've seen from the TTC masses, there will either be a high turn-over rate or costly salaries for the fare enforcers.

no, the fare system should never depend on the honesty of patrons.
In many cities, it works this way: you tap the card to enter, and tap again at the station to exit. The machine automatically deduct money from your card based on the distance you travelled. There is no way of cheating as it doesn't involve purchasing the ticket in advance.
If you don't have enough money left, you card will end up a negative value, next time you would need to recharge to enter the station again. And if you fail to tap your card when leaving within a reasonable time (say 2 hours), maximum amount will be deducted.

I think it is the best way to go. It doesn't really require very high technologies.

 

[noctis]

I still don't get it though...if we are going to use the Presto system or even the distance based system, how do we incorporate the transfer system in it? For example, if I get on the bus at Stop A and heading towards Stop B and want to transfer to another bus from there, how would I tap on/off? Also, I am frequent transit user, and without the monthly pass it's really bothersome...

 

[kkgg7]

I still don't get it though...if we are going to use the Presto system or even the distance based system, how do we incorporate the transfer system in it? For example, if I get on the bus at Stop A and heading towards Stop B and want to transfer to another bus from there, how would I tap on/off? Also, I am frequent transit user, and without the monthly pass it's really bothersome...

there is no transfer. Actually, transfers are largely abandoned by much of the world.
when you need to transfer, you tap again. For example, you exited the subway and takes the bus, you tap your card at the reading machine on the bus, which knows you are making a transfer, and will adjust your fare accordingly (compared with you just board the bus from home).

Monthly passes do provide a lot of convenience, but they also overcharge you big time. For example, you go for a vacation for 3 weeks in July, and you still pay that $121. A distance based fare plus a monthly cap works best for passengers.

Monthly passes also have one more drawback: they encourage unnecessary trips (and overcrowding). Someone might walk from Dundas to College in 8 minutes, but the possession of the monthly pass will encourage him to take the subway for only 1 stop. If he needs to pay $1, you may choose to just walk.

 

[andrewpmk]

It should be integrated with the turnstyle - and located on the top except for the accessible entrance. Ergonomic issue. A bigger one might be the fact there is no exit control in the existing turnstyles and that might have to be retrofitted in. Or just get new ones.

AoD

I wonder whether we should have fare by distance on buses as well. GO already does this with the Presto card using GPS. Some TTC buses go a long way, taking the #54 bus from Yonge to Mount Pleasant costs the TTC far less than taking it to Yonge to Rouge Hill.