Waterloo Region Transit Developments (ION LRT, new terminal, GRT buses)

[P0per]

Is there going to be any double-track street trackage anywhere? I'm not getting any "streetcar system" impression here.

Yes, they just haven't started to lay track in those segments (at least last time I had seen it).


There are a few on-street double-tracked sections coming. From Conestogta Mall to Waterloo Spur, King Street from Uptown Waterloo to Downtown Kitchener, Charles St. from Benton to Border and Courtland from Hayward to the Hydro Right-of-way.

The section on King between uptown Waterloo and CN Guelph Sub should have tracks laid relatively soon.

 

[Markster]

Is there going to be any double-track street trackage anywhere? I'm not getting any "streetcar system" impression here.

Right now, all the exciting construction is happening on rail corridors, and along the single-track split-direction sections. So that's what people are taking pictures of.

Here's a picture of Charles/Benton, from Ted Nielson, posted to the KW Light Rail facebook group. You can see how the track will be centre running down Charles. That's a dedicated right-of-way, which will not be shared with general traffic.

 

[P0per]

Right now, all the exciting construction is happening on rail corridors, and along the single-track split-direction sections. So that's what people are taking pictures of.

Here's how King St. was looking a few weeks ago, where the LRT will run centre of the street as well.
Untitled by ION Construction, on Flickr

 

[Duck]

I'm not getting any "streetcar system" impression here.

That's good - that's because it's not a streetcar system.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I'm not getting any "streetcar system" impression here.

That's good - that's because it's not a streetcar system.

Maybe not to what we are used to in North America. However, it does remind me of streetcar networks in Europe, which often have sections of their streetcar lines exist in their own corridor.

 

[Duck]

Ion resembles most other light rail systems in North America; Toronto's streetcar network is unique and the odd one out for having so much (virtually its entirety) sharing right of way with cars.

 

[ehlow]

Ion resembles most other light rail systems in North America; Toronto's streetcar network is unique and the odd one out for having so much (virtually its entirety) sharing right of way with cars.

A. It's not unique to have large amounts streetcars in mixed traffic, there are many examples around the world
B. I don't agree with "virtually its entirety", Spadina is one of the most well used lines. If we're talking length, St Clair is long and there's Queensway ROW and Queens Quay

 

[cplchanb]

Theres a difference between LRT and Streetcar being that LRTs almost always have exclusive ROW (essentially a metro system using streetcar sized vehicles) while streetcars are mainly mixed in. Hence there has been
an inherent confusion for transit city vs subways as many are misguided into thinking that its just more streetcars.

 

[nfitz]

So the 509, 510, and 512 are LRT then, and the other lines are streetcars?

 

[Duck]

Toronto's first LRT line will be the Eglinton Crosstown. All other lines are streetcars. Thus, Toronto currently does not have an LRT line.

Streetcars have turn signals. LRV's do not.

 

[cplchanb]

seems like theres no technical difference between them:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=214791

http://www.humantransit.org/2010/03/streetcars-vs-light-rail-is-there-a-difference.html

So essentially LRT is more or less a trade name. However, in recent times major defining factors are ROWs, stop spacing and service speed. rolling stock are not a factor

 

[Markster]

Yeah, I see no need to split hairs so thoroughly.

ION as built will be very similar to many European systems that are still referred to as "streetcars".
It will certainly be different from much of Toronto's streetcar network, but as pointed out, the Queensway ROW is quite different, and there are lines in between like Spadina and St. Clair.

Everything is in shades of grey, and certainly, amongst us transit geeks, I think we can all appreciate the differences without fighting over pigeonholing.

 

[reetard]

I thought that another difference between streetcars and LRTs was LRTs have doors on both sides.

 

[smably]

Spadina was originally intended to be LRT (separated from traffic, wide stop spacing), but the NIMBYs shot that idea down. So it was built with frequent stops and no curbs. Cars were allowed to turn over the ROW midblock. Naturally, that didn't work so well, so curbs were added. Stop spacing remained the same, though, and advance left turns with no transit priority mean the average speed is very much in the streetcar range, despite the dedicated ROW. A missed opportunity if you ask me -- but that's why it's the Spadina Streetcar, not the Spadina LRT.

And in Europe, these would probably all be called trams.

 

[BMO]

Theres a difference between LRT and Streetcar being that LRTs almost always have exclusive ROW (essentially a metro system using streetcar sized vehicles) while streetcars are mainly mixed in. Hence there has been
an inherent confusion for transit city vs subways as many are misguided into thinking that its just more streetcars.

Honestly I don't think people get confused and think LRT is analogous with streetcars, I think people just don't have confidence that at-grade intersections will give transit priority and thus you'll have a separated transit line that still stops at traffic lights (something that happens on Spadina and St. Clair which I know many call a streetcar service but is essentially LRT without the transit priority).