Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

[Allandale25]

Review by Steve Munro.

Waterfront East LRT Virtual Public Meeting

Updated February 16, 2021 at 10:00 pm: The discussion of the new design for Union Station has been updated with additional info from the Waterfront Transit Team describing the smoke control design …

stevemunro.ca

 

[W. K. Lis]

Review by Steve Munro.

Waterfront East LRT Virtual Public Meeting

Updated February 16, 2021 at 10:00 pm: The discussion of the new design for Union Station has been updated with additional info from the Waterfront Transit Team describing the smoke control design …

stevemunro.ca

Where's the designs for the Cherry Street underpass? Between Queens Quay and the Distillery Loop, will they share the same loop or be a separate loop?

 

[DSC]

Where's the designs for the Cherry Street underpass? Between Queens Quay and the Distillery Loop, will they share the same loop or be a separate loop?

The phase through the rail berm linking QQE to Cherry is not yet being worked on (seriously) and I doubt much time will be taken on it tomorrow. That said, I cannot imagine why it would not use the same loop, if it ever happens. I have seen tentative plans to move the (historic) signal cabin a bit further east (to accommodate the extra tracks that GO wants to install ) and this would also be necessary if there is to be a new streetcar 'tunnel' under the berm.

 

[sacred]

Could some of the Federal transit money be used to move at least the west part along more quickly? Goals seem way too far into the future when Lakeshore west needs local transit

 

[drum118]

The phase through the rail berm linking QQE to Cherry is not yet being worked on (seriously) and I doubt much time will be taken on it tomorrow. That said, I cannot imagine why it would not use the same loop, if it ever happens. I have seen tentative plans to move the (historic) signal cabin a bit further east (to accommodate the extra tracks that GO wants to install ) and this would also be necessary if there is to be a new streetcar 'tunnel' under the berm.

There will be next to no talk tomorrow on the Cherry St underpass as it is to be study under the TRIP with more to known later this year for the next meeting. This is part of my issue with the phasing and how can you come up with one not knowing what the cost will be, the timeline for it to be done not only for the underpass, but the 2b itself.

Prefer option going back to the Cherry St EA was to continue line in a straight line with switches being added to the existing loop as a duel loop. Worse case will see the line running in mix traffic and then move back to the side. The loop will have to be rebuilt regardless what every option surface.

The signal cabin is being shifted to the east with no firm location I know of at this time.

Could some of the Federal transit money be used to move at least the west part along more quickly? Goals seem way too far into the future when Lakeshore west needs local transit

Going to be hard to get Fed's money in to phase 2B when it is need elsewhere yesterday.

These are the type of questions that need to be put forth either at the meeting or write in.

 

[Allandale25]

^ "as it is to be study under the TRIP" - what is "TRIP"?

 

[nfitz]

^ "as it is to be study under the TRIP" - what is "TRIP"?

I'd guess a TPAP - the acronym for Transit Project Assessment Process which is the expedited EA process the Liberals came up with for transit projects. But I'm only guessing that what he is referring to ...

 

[Undead]

I drove through this area last night and couldn't help thinking it would benefit from a lane diet. There's a lot of density going up, but the lanes and road overall are too wide. The area could feel more urban and much cozier than at present. The difference is really noticeable once you're west of Yonge and there's only one traffic lane.

 

[Megaton327]

Review by Steve Munro.

Waterfront East LRT Virtual Public Meeting

Updated February 16, 2021 at 10:00 pm: The discussion of the new design for Union Station has been updated with additional info from the Waterfront Transit Team describing the smoke control design …

stevemunro.ca

Wow, my goodness, I know we're all probably generally more interested in the LRT but I just want to call special attention to these shots from Steve's blog regarding the Martin Goodman Trail and cyclist/pedestrian separation:

Are my eyes deceiving me, or did the City/WFT actually LEARN something from the mess that is QQW? 5cm grade change with a curb separating the MGT from the sidewalk, asphalt MGT continuing right up to the roadway at intersections instead of turning into a "mixing zone" with the same reddish brick as the sidewalk, and an "open planter" zone seemingly with dirt/grass throughout instead of red brick sidewalk separating the MGT from the streetcar tracks? Wow. Hats off to WFT for actually noticing how badly those decisions impacted QQW and responding to fix them for QQE. Now, if only the streetcars were centre- rather than side-running (to this day, on both QQW and Cherry this remains a regular source of confusion for motorists), but still, this is a huge fix to cyclist and pedestrian separation. And during the busy summer tons of pedestrians used to stand on the super-narrow red brick "sidewalk" between the MGT and the streetcar tracks forcing streetcars to slow to a crawl and frequently stop and honk for them to move, so the "open planter" is also very welcome.

 

[drum118]

I drove through this area last night and couldn't help thinking it would benefit from a lane diet. There's a lot of density going up, but the lanes and road overall are too wide. The area could feel more urban and much cozier than at present. The difference is really noticeable once you're west of Yonge and there's only one traffic lane.

That is the way we saw it when we did the EA for QQW to the point great concerns were raise by the local at the first public meeting of having 2 lanes of traffic being remove. We went back and had a 2nd look with the list of complaints against the plan. It was decided to get real data on traffic and pedestrians numbers by getting the plate number of every vehicle over 2 month timeframe to see where they were coming from in the first place. Upon checking address of each vehicle, it was found close to 66% reside outside the waterfront area and using QQ as a short cut than use the Gardiner and the Lake Shore. The numbers said there was enough room for each lane to support a single lane in place of 2 lanes to service the locals as well visitors to the waterfront. Along with this data and other info, an update plan was presented to the public a year later that saw next to no objection to what is out there to day.

QQE was to see the same thing when the plan was approved in 2010, but with various changes.

As a note, TTC has objected to the side ROW and prefer the centre of the road ROW from day one for both QQW/QQE and Cherry St. TTC has always wanted some type of barrier between the MGT and the streetcar. I do agree on this, but not what TTC wanted

I do agree there are a number of things that need to be change, especially at intersections that cause issues for everyone and this new change for QQE is one of them. How trees will be planted as well the different types now going to be use is going to help the trees to grow, not to die like they have on the QQW. The intersection will be setup better for drivers than QQW, but EMS is still call shots for the ROW which the should not consider how little they use it in the first place..

Once QQE is done, some work will be done on QQW to match the new change at intersections and will be a cost issue as to when.

T minus 2 hours tell show time.

 

[W. K. Lis]

...

As a note, TTC has objected to the side ROW and prefer the centre of the road ROW from day one for both QQW/QQE and Cherry St. TTC has always wanted some type of barrier between the MGT and the streetcar. I do agree on this, but not what TTC wanted

I do agree there are a number of things that need to be change, especially at intersections that cause issues for everyone and this new change for QQE is one of them. How trees will be planted as well the different types now going to be use is going to help the trees to grow, not to die like they have on the QQW. The intersection will be setup better for drivers than QQW, but EMS is still call shots for the ROW which the should not consider how little they use it in the first place..

Once QQE is done, some work will be done on QQW to match the new change at intersections and will be a cost issue as to when.

T minus 2 hours tell show time.

The users of the transit line would more likely be concentrated on the south side of Queens Quay. Make sense to locate the right-of-way also on the south side. Using planters and bushes would provide a barrier safety zone between the walkway and the tracks.

 

[Jeff Morgan]

T minus 2 hours tell show time.

Did anything new or interesting come out of the session yesterday?

 

[DSC]

I drove through this area last night and couldn't help thinking it would benefit from a lane diet. There's a lot of density going up, but the lanes and road overall are too wide. The area could feel more urban and much cozier than at present. The difference is really noticeable once you're west of Yonge and there's only one traffic lane.

That is exactly what is planned - like QQW but better (lessons learned and all that). There are some details on WT website

 

[drum118]

Did anything new or interesting come out of the session yesterday?

I was going to ask the same question to the group that isn't already known here already.

Reading some of the comments in the chat and its the same things that has been asked and said regarding construction, business and the Islands that I haven't heard since 2008 for all the projects not only on the Waterfront, but elsewhere.

PPL complaining about infilling the slips is a good laugh since the lands around them are already infill land that was started in 1850's and finished around 1920's.

The unloading of stuff for the 600 residents of the Islands as well people doing a day visit seems to be more important than moving 1,000's of riders a day.

Using buses in place of streetcars is a non starter since they will never handle the ridership and be caught up in traffic unless using an ROW. It cannot be part of the streetcar network as well.

It seems the representors from various condos on QQ that are on the committee are either not communicating with all the owners of the buildings or the owners are not telling the renters what is to happen as too many of the same questions regarding their important car.

Noise will always be an issue around construction, but it will be a moving target as work starts up in one area before moving to another over a short span other than the portal area that will be longer. Then it will only be a fraction compare to the 11 Bay project that will be years.

MGT at Yonge seems to be an issues with some cycles and not a big deal except for the few that boom along the MGT and only think of themselves.

Until there is more info pertaining to the section between Parliament and Cherry Loop, there is no way to come up with a phasing process as well a timeline for funding it once a cost is known for it.

If Waterfront Toronto had the money to build the transit line in the first other than Union Loop, QQE would be build to Cherry St now and would start once the Portland is ready for new roads. This will allow developers to develop their lands that they wanted to do for years. Can't build a development when there is no road or sidewalks to get to it in the first place.

Those many not agree with me, I wish Miller had stay on for another term as we wouldn't be in this transit mess today. We may also have seen the removal of the Gardiner as well.

 

[JMSRead]

Personally, I find the new Queens Quay West to be clunky and confusing. To drive and even to walk. I've seen a couple cyclists come close to colliding with pedestrians, because they don't realize they're standing in a bike lane.