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Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

How should Toronto connect the East and West arms of the planned waterfront transit with downtown?

  • Expand the existing Union loop

    Votes: 205 71.2%

  • Build a Western terminus

    Votes: 13 4.5%

  • Route service along Queen's Quay with pedestrian/cycle/bus connection to Union

    Votes: 31 10.8%

  • Connect using existing Queen's Quay/Union Loop and via King Street

    Votes: 22 7.6%

  • Other

    Votes: 17 5.9%
  • Total voters
    288
  • The new portal with the taxi/bus loop actually...seems pretty reasonable. The taxis/buses are going to be there anyways, and the design sequesters them at least. Did like the new pedestrian-focused design.
  • Was there ever a plan to run streetcars up Parliament? I ask because there's a line that says "to Parliament", but without a loop.
  • @drum118 Why is the Bremner line on its last legs?
All in all, I really do appreciate the work on this, and hope to see it built!
 
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drum118 said:
It can be pass on to various groups members now. I represent transit and since this is a transit group, I can pass it on for feed back from the group.
Click to expand...

Would like to get to the source or link of the information supplied, so I could download it. Just in case the powers-that-be decide to redact it.
 
W. K. Lis said:
Would like to get to the source or link of the information supplied, so I could download it. Just in case the powers-that-be decide to redact it.
Click to expand...
Sent to those on the committer only, but a link will show up after the January public meeting. What you see will be the same as here, except with other material and maybe a few changes.

If questioning for the PIC was like our meeting, the meeting will be over 2 hours long.
 
allengeorge said:
  • The new portal with the taxi/bus loop actually...seems pretty reasonable. The taxis/buses are going to be there anyways, and the design sequesters them at least. Did like the new pedestrian-focused design.
  • Was there ever a plan to run streetcars up Parliament? I ask because there's a line that says "to Parliament", but without a loop.
  • @drum118 Why is the Bremner line on its last legs?
All in all, I really do appreciate the work on this, and hope to see it built!
Click to expand...
Bremner line makes no sense and it was to run in front of Fort York who oppose it. Ridership was below the numbers for a line. Look what happen to 121 bus route. What TTC saw in the early days was having a Bathurst car using Bremmer to Union as well cars from the west.

Ask Steve Munro if there should be a Bremner line and he will say no as well.

There been talk from 2004 about a Parliament Line and were told its outside our mandate for transit on the Waterfront. The plan has always seen a loop at Parliament as it was unknown what was going to take place east of it until the last 8 years or less. The goal has been from day one to take the line to Cherry St and interline it with the Cherry Line. What TTC saw for service back then has change to what they see today including lower ridership numbers because of the Ontario Line which I dispute. Should a Parliament line be in the plan, yes and outside our mandate to call for it.

The revise area for the hotel is a lot better than the first one, but my concern is the overfull of taxis's and how they will effect the area like they do today or before the COVID-19 mess.
 
Based on my info, what concerns do people see; what changes should be made; is more info needed, anything good to say about it?

My concern at this time is timeline, phasing as well cost and funding.

I support taking the line to Cherry St as one shot, but where is the money to do it and what is the time line to do it? Without out knowing this, don't know if it is a good idea to stop at Parliament as plan to have the line up and running before 2030 under the current budget as a through line while Union is being rebuilt since Union is the lion share of cost. The other unknown is what going to happen for Cherry St underpass as to which option will be use, the cost to do it and a time frame. Best option and most costly one is to rebuild it wider and lower the road under it. Will take the longest to do and have an impact on GO service. Since there is a large area on the south side, a new bridge could be built as one piece and roll into position over a weekend, if it wasn't for the new piers to support it other than come some type of support for it built before hand.

Taking the line to Cherry Street and looping at Villiers St is a cheaper and faster option as well getting the line into the Portland area sooner than 2035. It will show you don't need a car to live here as per the original plan as well offering all year round access to the Cherry Beach area.

Lack of accessibility from the QQ station platform as well for riders with walkers and stroller as well ridership number is a big issue for QQ station. I raised this issue and echo by others to the point I recommended using a ramp system. This removes the need for 2 elevators. 11 Bay will have a larger entrance to the platform and can have 2 elevators to the platform and tunnel, but only one for the outbound like it is today. No clear plan what is taking place on the south side and a ramp could be place there as well. Ramps will remove a lot of barriers and cost.

Have an issue with wider cycle path and echo by others that it will allow various cycles to travel faster and blow through intersections.

Nice to see other trees been looked at since they haven't fair well on the rebuilt section to date. A little more green would be nice as well.

Nice to see the through track for Bay Tunnel.

Don't support building Union Loop in phases to save a buck as it will cost more down the road as well operation issues. You can have 509/510/? drop riders off at one platform and pickup riders for their own platform. This will help to reduce the bunching, but will have some impact when 2 509 show up at the same time.
 
Looking forward to the public consultation early next year - imo they should build the east extension first, and then run east west streetcar service while they rebuild Union + QQ in one hit, rather than slowly over many years.

If the Cherry connection is too expensive to achieve, at least constructing the "T" junction connection for future use would save some hassle in the long run.

I wonder if the TTC has thought about/wants/needs another connection to Leslie Barns along Commissioners?
 
turini2 said:
Looking forward to the public consultation early next year - imo they should build the east extension first, and then run east west streetcar service while they rebuild Union + QQ in one hit, rather than slowly over many years.

If the Cherry connection is too expensive to achieve, at least constructing the "T" junction connection for future use would save some hassle in the long run.

I wonder if the TTC has thought about/wants/needs another connection to Leslie Barns along Commissioners?
Click to expand...

Yes, the powers-that-be "thought" about streetcar connection along Commissioners.

201758-transit-network.jpg

From link.

Some non-powers-that-be even thought about what possible "routes".

i286541539310717112._szw1280h1280_.jpg

From link. (Don't think the 513 VIA BREMNER will happen.)
 
turini2 said:
Looking forward to the public consultation early next year - imo they should build the east extension first, and then run east west streetcar service while they rebuild Union + QQ in one hit, rather than slowly over many years.

If the Cherry connection is too expensive to achieve, at least constructing the "T" junction connection for future use would save some hassle in the long run.

I wonder if the TTC has thought about/wants/needs another connection to Leslie Barns along Commissioners?
Click to expand...
The plan is to loop the QQE/Commissioner Line service through the Leslie Barns as well offering another route to put cars in/out of service. Would be faster for the 504A, 509, 510, 511 and ?

Once the line is extended to Dufferin Loop and out to Park Lawn, offer another option for cars being transfer from yard to yard as well in/out of service than using King and Queen.

The city made the mistake of removing 517 from the Mater Plan since they saw it too far out and could had been part of 525 or X.

As I noted, how to phase is subject to cost, funding and time line to take the line 100% to Cherry St Loop or the Villiers Loop, but the T needs to be there. Will it take 1 or 2 years to get to Cherry St and can that take place at the same time as QQE? Then there is the underpass and the 3 options for it as well the cost.

I am assuming Villiers Loop is short term since it supposed to loop next to the shipping channel and the LRT bridge fund is missing for it.

Regardless which of the 3 loop will be use, the east-west line needs to be in place before the real work at Union can take place. 509 and 510 will have to be bus while the existing portal and new one is built that should be less than a year. It will be cut/fill and have impact on traffic between Yonge and York with only one way traffic being use for the area with Bay close off. Best to have eastbound only.

Various sections of QQE will be one way only at times until the ROW is built.

A lot of my concerns will not be known come January PIC, but they need to be raise by others. They should be known by the Spring PIC.

The $1 Billion funding for phase 1 and 2A are in the current 2020-30 budget, with $600 million for Union. I expect the hotel has kick in money for the infilling of the Yonge Slip as well for 11 Bay work.
 
allengeorge said:
I looked this up a long time ago, and I think the info came from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_railway_stations_in_North_America

Might just be counting railway stations. Of course, NYC has 3 in the top 10 - and Penn is getting bigger and way nicer.
Click to expand...
Will Penn gain in ridership? I was wondering if East Side access will shift some traffic from Penn to Grand Central.

On a side note, why does Grand Central have 44 platforms and still much lower ridership than Penn which has only 11?
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
Union is already the second busiest train station in North America at any rate.
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He/she was hoping that Union becomes one of the greatest station. Being busy is not comparable to being great. Penn is the busiest one but looks mediocre at best.

I am not sure but Union may already be one the greatest considering everything - aesthetics, cultural significance, transit significance, etc. but I haven't seen most of the other stations in North America. so I can't say for sure. Although the platform level at Union is really bad.

How about other large old stations? How do they compare with Union in architecture and track/platform level?
 
Deadpool X said:
He/she was hoping that Union becomes one of the greatest station. Being busy is not comparable to being great. Penn is the busiest one but looks mediocre at best.

I am not sure but Union may already be one the greatest considering everything - aesthetics, cultural significance, transit significance, etc. but I haven't seen most of the other stations in North America. so I can't say for sure. Although the platform level at Union is really bad.

How about other large old stations? How do they compare with Union in architecture and track/platform level?
Click to expand...

Maybe - but the OP was referring to the station as a global hub - and Union for all its' warts (you should have seen how much I have ripped the "experience" at the station - particularly in the thread about the shed) is great by the sheer location, right smack in the middle of the CBD, anchoring a massive amount of office space in walkable distance, modes (subway, LRT, commuter rail, rail, buses) and of course usage - and others have mentioned at one point or another that unlike most cities elsewhere - pretty much all the passenger rail traffic is focused in this one station.

Not exactly original for me to say this - but Union Station will be great - when they finally finish it.

AoD
 
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Deadpool X said:
On a side note, why does Grand Central have 44 platforms and still much lower ridership than Penn which has only 11?
Click to expand...
Penn has NJT, Amtrak, Path (IIRC), LIRR, a bunch of subway lines. You have a huge amount of inter-regional traffic coming out of Penn. Basically, if you want a Northeast corridor train, or to go to Jersey, to go to Long Island you're using Penn.

On the other hand, Grand Central only has subway lines and MNR.
 
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