Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

[steveintoronto]

Is Waterfront LRT a priority or a pipe dream?: transit advocates
Proposal needs a bump on city’s priority list, Coun. Mark Grimes says
NEWS JUN 12, 2019 BY VERONICA APPIA TORONTO.COM
https://www.toronto.com/news-story/...a-priority-or-a-pipe-dream-transit-advocates/

 

[Amare]

This is the same guy who said a few months ago:

"We don't have the big community centre, the big hub, but we have a lot, "We are well-served." and;

"Eventually I tell people, 'we can't widen the road — we've got to get you out of your car'. We have to do that. But that's in 20 or 30 years.”

Grimes is useless, he's had 15+ years to make this a top city priority and the line is nowhere closer to fruition. The only thing he's "accomplished" for the waterfront with regards to transit is: a TTC GO Shuttle, a next to useless premium express bus route, and a re-routed ttc bus route (66 Prince Edward). Pretty pathetic record if you ask me, but the constituents seem to be happy with that.

 

[DSC]

Google sister company Sidewalk Labs won’t pay the upfront costs of the transit project that’s critical to the its planned “smart city” neighbourhood on Toronto’s waterfront, meaning the public sector will have to come up with the hundreds of millions of dollars required to build the new rail line.
Instead, in its long-awaited master plan released Monday the company proposes giving up to $100 million in “credit support” to help finance the project, to be repaid later at a low interest rate.
But the LRT isn’t part the transit plans that are currently the subject of fractious debate between the city and province, meaning the viability of Sidewalk’s proposal could now hinge on city hall and Queen’s Park both agreeing to change course.
The 6.5-kilometre Waterfront East LRT would run from Union Station to the Port Lands along Queens Quay, and is estimated to cost at least $1.2 billion.
Although the city has been studying building the line for over a decade, it’s unfunded and there is no firm timeline for its construction.
The LRT is seen as essential to Sidewalk’s vision to redevelop Toronto’s Quayside and Portlands neighbourhoods, which would create roughly 30 million square feet of new development anticipated to generate 44,000 jobs and house 53,000 residents.

From: https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...cal-to-smart-city-waterfront-development.html

 

[raptor]

Google sister company Sidewalk Labs won’t pay the upfront costs of the transit project that’s critical to the its planned “smart city” neighbourhood on Toronto’s waterfront, meaning the public sector will have to come up with the hundreds of millions of dollars required to build the new rail line.
Instead, in its long-awaited master plan released Monday the company proposes giving up to $100 million in “credit support” to help finance the project, to be repaid later at a low interest rate.
But the LRT isn’t part the transit plans that are currently the subject of fractious debate between the city and province, meaning the viability of Sidewalk’s proposal could now hinge on city hall and Queen’s Park both agreeing to change course.
The 6.5-kilometre Waterfront East LRT would run from Union Station to the Port Lands along Queens Quay, and is estimated to cost at least $1.2 billion.
Although the city has been studying building the line for over a decade, it’s unfunded and there is no firm timeline for its construction.
The LRT is seen as essential to Sidewalk’s vision to redevelop Toronto’s Quayside and Portlands neighbourhoods, which would create roughly 30 million square feet of new development anticipated to generate 44,000 jobs and house 53,000 residents.

From: https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...cal-to-smart-city-waterfront-development.html

In fairness, and as much as I want an LRT here (very, very much), people have been saying that an LRT was essential to building anything in this part of town. Now, look at all of the developments on Queens Quay East without having an LRT. Clearly, it's not essential.

 

[DSC]

In fairness, and as much as I want an LRT here (very, very much), people have been saying that an LRT was essential to building anything in this part of town. Now, look at all of the developments on Queens Quay East without having an LRT. Clearly, it's not essential.

Many of the developers were promised an LRT years ago and I think that once all the currently planned buildings are filled it REALLY WILL be essential. Relying on the Bay and Sherbourne buses to link to the subway is really not possible with many many more people.

 

[Northern Light]

Many of the developers were promised an LRT years ago and I think that once all the currently planned buildings are filled it REALLY WILL be essential. Relying on the Bay and Sherbourne buses to link to the subway is really not possible with many many more people.

Seeing the 1.2B figure above irks me.

There is nothing wrong w/phasing. Get this damned line built as far as Parliament and you will solve all relevant issues for a decade.

The portion to, and up Cherry will very much be needed, but not just yet. Bite-sized chunks; and go!

Same rule applies to many other projects, Yonge North could go to Steeles in phase 1 and you turn 1/2 the service back at Finch.

We don't need to build everything to its final state in one go.

This is letting the perfect become the enemy of the good.

When the dam bursts you don't end up w/perfect either, because work is rushed; too many projects all at once tax bureaucratic attention, and money is strained.

* To be clear, I favour the Relief/Ontario line getting done before any extension of Line 1; I was merely using that project as an example*

 

[rbt]

Seeing the 1.2B figure above irks me.

There is nothing wrong w/phasing. Get this damned line built as far as Parliament and you will solve all relevant issues for a decade.

Phasing doesn't reduce the price much as the bulk of the price (~$700M) is to rebuild Union Station for passenger capacity (which triggers application of modern building code touching the entire tunnel). What you propose is still a $900M project; the $1.2B version goes all the way to Leslie and includes a north/south extension of Cherry to Cherry Beach. Double-ended LRVs don't help either as the constraint is platform space; the loop track geometry isn't going to change.

Page 38 for $1.2B LRV map. Note, the $550M tunnel cost is below the price setout in the waterfront reset document.

https://storage.googleapis.com/sidewalk-toronto-ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/23142612/MIDP_Vol.2_Chap.1_Mobility.pdf

One possible option that I've not seen looked at is loading/unloading at CIBC Square only and having passengers walk the gap (~220m). The city owns part of P1/P2 facing Bay street and I imagine a new pedestrian tunnel wholly independent of the streetcar tunnel could be built for much less than $700M. The current streetcar loop would be walled off. Capacity would not be ideal but it would be improved due to a better waiting area.

 

[DSC]

I note that no final (??) report has yet appeared at Council. The QQE streetcar has been promised to developers (and us) for over a decade. Time to get on with it BEFORE putting more people down there.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Isn't it tied up whatever the deal with Sidewalk Labs ends up being now?

Of course this is yet another project that always has some perfectly reasonable "short" delay appear the moment it gets anywhere near ready to make real progress...

 

[drum118]

The extension is not tie to anything other than the 10 year capital budget. It in the 10 year budget, but not real date for it. It will happen sooner if funds are found from other sources, but by 2030 the line could be built.

There was a small report that went to council some months ago that was part of a bigger report on a number of things.

The big issue is TTC and has been since 2008. How the loop will be built is the big issue as TTC stills want the Brenner line.in the picture.

 

[TRONto]

The extension is not tie to anything other than the 10 year capital budget. It in the 10 year budget, but not real date for it. It will happen sooner if funds are found from other sources, but by 2030 the line could be built.

There was a small report that went to council some months ago that was part of a bigger report on a number of things.

The big issue is TTC and has been since 2008. How the loop will be built is the big issue as TTC stills want the Brenner line.in the picture.

I've read Munro's analysis regarding the Bremner line said that it wasn't feasible. Do you know why the TTC is so interested in it? Personally, I thought it would have been great to have a LRT through CityPlace.

 

[drum118]

I've read Munro's analysis regarding the Bremner line said that it wasn't feasible. Do you know why the TTC is so interested in it? Personally, I thought it would have been great to have a LRT through CityPlace.

Both Steve and I fully agree on what he wrote before he wrote it.

TTC was looking at running a Bathurst car along Bremner to the loop, but in the end the whole thing made no sense to have anything on Bremner as plan.

Even the developer of CityPlace didn't see the need for the line and was force to put in the ROW land when building the new Bremner road from Spadina to Bathurst. They stated most ppl have streetcar service on 3 side of the area and most would walk to the city core in the first place.

The ridership is not there then and now. The ridership is in the west and even then didn't justify the line. What has taken place at Fort York has put a nail in TTC plans who opposed the line in the first place.

 

[dowlingm]

Would a redevelopment of Skydome permitting a station/through track in the basement move the dial on Bremner, I wonder? As it stands the crowding issues made little sense to put a busy streetcar route through that area.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Would a redevelopment of Skydome permitting a station/through track in the basement move the dial on Bremner, I wonder? As it stands the crowding issues made little sense to put a busy streetcar route through that area.

Not really.

The Fort York issues aren't insurmountable, but they eliminate the ability to route Bremner directly enough to be meaningfully faster than QQ... The only way Bremner ever made any kind of sense was using it to improve travel times for a Waterfront West LRT.

 

[robmausser]

Not really.

The Fort York issues aren't insurmountable, but they eliminate the ability to route Bremner directly enough to be meaningfully faster than QQ... The only way Bremner ever made any kind of sense was using it to improve travel times for a Waterfront West LRT.

I did like the idea to have a new express ROW under the gardiner, but that was killed by the Bentway.