VIVA + York Region Transit

[6ixGod]

YRT/VIVA is the most frustrating transit agency in the GTA. They literally spent billions building some of the most beautiful BRT stations I’ve seen and they **** the bed with mind numbingly horrible frequency and timing. It’s a region that still thinks they’re a sleepy suburb of Toronto….it’s not…especially Vaughan and Markham.

Build it and they will come. I know plenty of people who avoid VIVA simply because the scheduling and frequency makes no sense. Look at the GO stations in Markham, they’re packed every morning. People happily will ditch the car to take decent public transport.

 

[cplchanb]

YRT/VIVA is the most frustrating transit agency in the GTA. They literally spent billions building some of the most beautiful BRT stations I’ve seen and they **** the bed with mind numbingly horrible frequency and timing. It’s a region that still thinks they’re a sleepy suburb of Toronto….it’s not…especially Vaughan and Markham.

Build it and they will come. I know plenty of people who avoid VIVA simply because the scheduling and frequency makes no sense. Look at the GO stations in Markham, they’re packed every morning. People happily will ditch the car to take decent public transport.

they had 15 years of data even before covid to show that the build it and they will come sentiment didnt necessarily ring true. suburban moms and dads still clung to their giant suvs. covid and the horror stories of TTC assaults certainly did not help.

 

[Wm Perkins Bull]

YRT/VIVA is the most frustrating transit agency in the GTA. They literally spent billions building some of the most beautiful BRT stations I’ve seen and they **** the bed with mind numbingly horrible frequency and timing. It’s a region that still thinks they’re a sleepy suburb of Toronto….it’s not…especially Vaughan and Markham.

Build it and they will come. I know plenty of people who avoid VIVA simply because the scheduling and frequency makes no sense. Look at the GO stations in Markham, they’re packed every morning. People happily will ditch the car to take decent public transport.

once you stop thinking of VIVA as a transit project and more as a jobs program it stops being a disgrace, and more an ingenious plan to gyp the province out of billions of dollars.

 

[ARG1]

once you stop thinking of VIVA as a transit project and more as a jobs program it stops being a disgrace, and more an ingenious plan to gyp the province out of billions of dollars.

Its neither, its a development project.

 

[Rainforest]

YRT/VIVA is the most frustrating transit agency in the GTA. They literally spent billions building some of the most beautiful BRT stations I’ve seen and they **** the bed with mind numbingly horrible frequency and timing. It’s a region that still thinks they’re a sleepy suburb of Toronto….it’s not…especially Vaughan and Markham.

Viva dropped the ball, big time. They began with frequencies 15 min or better, even when they had no busways and had to run in mixed traffic. 15 min or better is when the riders don't need to time their trips to the bus schedule, and can just come to the stop.

Now they have busways, but the frequency on some routes is every 20+ minutes. Not even exactly 20' clockface, but 20+.

They used to have direct connections to York U, both from Markham via RHC, and from the west end. The demand was so good that they had to run additional peak-time buses from RHC to York U.

Now, if you want to go from Markham to York U: First take Viva Purple to RHC, then Viva Orange to VMC, then subway to York U. Partly because York U doesn't want buses on their premises. But at least Viva could run a continuous service from Markham to Hwy 50 in the west.

 

[anb]

They used to have direct connections to York U, both from Markham via RHC, and from the west end. The demand was so good that they had to run additional peak-time buses from RHC to York U.

Now, if you want to go from Markham to York U: First take Viva Purple to RHC, then Viva Orange to VMC, then subway to York U. Partly because York U doesn't want buses on their premises. But at least Viva could run a continuous service from Markham to Hwy 50 in the west.

At least the TTC is doing something right in comparison with the Finch West corridor (well only except no BRT/LRT on the east side). They already have the 939 going to the station but imagine if they settled at just Yonge/Finch, then you had to take the 36 to Keele, then the subway to York U.

That is exactly what it feels like on Highway 7. If you have to take the Zum at VMC you have to also do the Purple -> Orange trip which makes the entire experience disjointed. If Viva Purple could extend to VMC, and let Zum handle the west end into Brampton that would make Highway 7 an actual frequent corridor.

Maybe Viva Orange can still exist, it can start at the Major Mac terminal then head down Jane, turn on Highway 7 to head straight to Highway 50, and they can even turn on The Gore Rd to head to Humber College. This move can benefit both BT and YRT as it’ll alleviate overcrowding on the BT 50 and 501 routes while giving more ridership to YRT.

 

[chrisw]

https://www.yrt.ca/en/schedules-and-maps/service-changes-and-updates.aspx​

November 3, 2024 service changes​

Viva blue/blue B
The Viva blue branch operating between Bernard Terminal and Finch GO Bus Terminal will be renamed Viva blue B.

Schedules will be adjusted to match ridership demand south of Bernard Terminal on Viva blue B.
Frequency will be adjusted as follows:

Weekdays:

• Morning rush hour – from 12 to approximately every 9 minutes
• Midday – from 18 to approximately every 12 minutes
• Afternoon rush hour – from 14 to approximately every 10 minutes

Saturdays:

• Morning – from 17 to approximately every 12 minutes
• Midday – from 17 to approximately every 13 minutes
• Evening – from 17 to approximately every 13 minutes

Sunday/Holidays:

• Morning – from 24 to approximately every 15 minutes
• Midday – from 24 approximately every 15 minutes
• Evening – from 24 approximately every 15 minutes

First and last trips will be adjusted.

[Would be nice to see the combined frequencies on this section]

Viva purple/purple A

Weekdays:
Schedules will be adjusted to match ridership demand.
Frequency will be adjusted as follows:

• Midday – from 13 to 11 minutes (combined)
• Afternoon rush hour – from 9 to 8 minutes (combined)
• Evening – from 20 to 15 minutes (combined)

First and last trips will be adjusted.

Route 20 – Jane​

Weekdays:
Schedules will be adjusted with an earlier northbound trip.

• First northbound trip departing from Pioneer Village Terminal (stop 7197) at 4:49 a.m. instead of 5:22 a.m.

 

[chrisw]

Not an expert but here's my estimate for Viva Blue's avg combined frequency.

Though the combined frequency is more a reflection of capacity, the routes aren't perfectly interleaved anymore.

Viva blue/blue B
Combined frequency between Bernard Terminal and Finch GO Bus Terminal (on average).

Weekdays:

• Morning rush hour – from 12 to approximately every 9 minutes (blue B), from 6 to 5.1 minutes (combined avg)
• Midday – from 18 to approximately every 12 minutes (blue B), from 9 to 7.2 minutes (combined avg)
• Afternoon rush hour – from 14 to approximately every 10 minutes (blue B), from 7 to 5.8 minutes (combined avg)

Saturdays:

• Morning – from 17 to approximately every 12 minutes (blue B), from 8.5 to 7 minutes (combined avg)
• Midday – from 17 to approximately every 13 minutes (blue B), from 8.5 to 7.4 minutes (combined avg)
• Evening – from 17 to approximately every 13 minutes (blue B), from 8.5 to 7.4 minutes (combined avg)

Sunday/Holidays:

• Morning – from 24 to approximately every 15 minutes (blue B), from 12 to 9.2 minutes (combined avg)
• Midday – from 24 approximately every 15 minutes (blue B), from 12 to 9.2 minutes (combined avg)
• Evening – from 24 approximately every 15 minutes (blue B), from 12 to 9.2 minutes (combined avg)

 

[cplchanb]

Not an expert but here's my estimate for Viva Blue's avg combined frequency.

Though the combined frequency is more a reflection of capacity, the routes aren't perfectly interleaved anymore.

Viva blue/blue B
Combined frequency between Bernard Terminal and Finch GO Bus Terminal (on average).

Weekdays:

• Morning rush hour – from 12 to approximately every 9 minutes (blue B), from 6 to 5.1 minutes (combined avg)
• Midday – from 18 to approximately every 12 minutes (blue B), from 9 to 7.2 minutes (combined avg)
• Afternoon rush hour – from 14 to approximately every 10 minutes (blue B), from 7 to 5.8 minutes (combined avg)

Saturdays:

• Morning – from 17 to approximately every 12 minutes (blue B), from 8.5 to 7 minutes (combined avg)
• Midday – from 17 to approximately every 13 minutes (blue B), from 8.5 to 7.4 minutes (combined avg)
• Evening – from 17 to approximately every 13 minutes (blue B), from 8.5 to 7.4 minutes (combined avg)

Sunday/Holidays:

• Morning – from 24 to approximately every 15 minutes (blue B), from 12 to 9.2 minutes (combined avg)
• Midday – from 24 approximately every 15 minutes (blue B), from 12 to 9.2 minutes (combined avg)
• Evening – from 24 approximately every 15 minutes (blue B), from 12 to 9.2 minutes (combined avg)

also Viva Pink is confirmed to be DEAD in the latest service update. RIP

 

[ARG1]

https://www.yrt.ca/en/schedules-and-maps/service-changes-and-updates.aspx​

November 3, 2024 service changes​

Viva blue/blue B
The Viva blue branch operating between Bernard Terminal and Finch GO Bus Terminal will be renamed Viva blue B.

Schedules will be adjusted to match ridership demand south of Bernard Terminal on Viva blue B.
Frequency will be adjusted as follows:

Weekdays:

• Morning rush hour – from 12 to approximately every 9 minutes
• Midday – from 18 to approximately every 12 minutes
• Afternoon rush hour – from 14 to approximately every 10 minutes

Saturdays:

• Morning – from 17 to approximately every 12 minutes
• Midday – from 17 to approximately every 13 minutes
• Evening – from 17 to approximately every 13 minutes

Sunday/Holidays:

• Morning – from 24 to approximately every 15 minutes
• Midday – from 24 approximately every 15 minutes
• Evening – from 24 approximately every 15 minutes

First and last trips will be adjusted.

[Would be nice to see the combined frequencies on this section]

Viva purple/purple A

Weekdays:
Schedules will be adjusted to match ridership demand.
Frequency will be adjusted as follows:

• Midday – from 13 to 11 minutes (combined)
• Afternoon rush hour – from 9 to 8 minutes (combined)
• Evening – from 20 to 15 minutes (combined)

First and last trips will be adjusted.

Route 20 – Jane​

Weekdays:
Schedules will be adjusted with an earlier northbound trip.

• First northbound trip departing from Pioneer Village Terminal (stop 7197) at 4:49 a.m. instead of 5:22 a.m.

Honestly I feel like the increase in service for Blue B is misplaced. In my experience the way Viva Blue works is that Blue B is sorta busy, but regular Blue is completely and utterly jam packed, and it stays that way even after Bernard. There have been times where I got on a bus at Bernard at 6 in the morning, and there was literally nowhere to sit (heading South of course). Not to say that increasing service south of Bernard wouldn't help, but that's honestly not where we should be prioritizing.

 

[chrisw]

Honestly I feel like the increase in service for Blue B is misplaced. In my experience the way Viva Blue works is that Blue B is sorta busy, but regular Blue is completely and utterly jam packed, and it stays that way even after Bernard. There have been times where I got on a bus at Bernard at 6 in the morning, and there was literally nowhere to sit (heading South of course). Not to say that increasing service south of Bernard wouldn't help, but that's honestly not where we should be prioritizing.

Well, this from a cursory look at some weekday data (not an expert). Viva Blue is quite a long route North of Bernard, it's not always that busy. Generally the southbound buses still have many seats North of Bernard. It's much more common to have fuller buses going North from Finch terminal.

Even in your case a more common Blue B bus means you can easily take that empty bus instead from Bernard. And they're also increasing midday service not just rush hour. They can always also increase Viva Blue service in the future. They can also increase Viva Blue service off peak when the Viva Blue B branch isn't running.

 

[Northern Light]

https://www.yrt.ca/en/schedules-and-maps/service-changes-and-updates.aspx​

November 3, 2024 service changes​

Viva blue/blue B
The Viva blue branch operating between Bernard Terminal and Finch GO Bus Terminal will be renamed Viva blue B.

Schedules will be adjusted to match ridership demand south of Bernard Terminal on Viva blue B.
Frequency will be adjusted as follows:

Weekdays:

• Morning rush hour – from 12 to approximately every 9 minutes
• Midday – from 18 to approximately every 12 minutes
• Afternoon rush hour – from 14 to approximately every 10 minutes

Saturdays:

• Morning – from 17 to approximately every 12 minutes
• Midday – from 17 to approximately every 13 minutes
• Evening – from 17 to approximately every 13 minutes

Sunday/Holidays:

• Morning – from 24 to approximately every 15 minutes
• Midday – from 24 approximately every 15 minutes
• Evening – from 24 approximately every 15 minutes

First and last trips will be adjusted.

[Would be nice to see the combined frequencies on this section]

Viva purple/purple A

Weekdays:
Schedules will be adjusted to match ridership demand.
Frequency will be adjusted as follows:

• Midday – from 13 to 11 minutes (combined)
• Afternoon rush hour – from 9 to 8 minutes (combined)
• Evening – from 20 to 15 minutes (combined)

First and last trips will be adjusted.

Route 20 – Jane​

Weekdays:
Schedules will be adjusted with an earlier northbound trip.

• First northbound trip departing from Pioneer Village Terminal (stop 7197) at 4:49 a.m. instead of 5:22 a.m.

Having just thoroughly lambasted YRT not 24 hours ago, I have to say these look to be 2 of the most constructive service improvements I've seen from them.

It really brings 2 routes/corridors to every 15M or better from early through evening, at least on weekdays.

VIVA purple still has some pretty atrocious service on the weekends from what I can see.

But forward motion all the same.

I'd like to see a program for the next round of improvement finish getting these services up to every 15M or better 6am-11pm M-F, and 8am-11pm on weekends, with 20M or better, 6am-1am, every day.

The step after that is to add at least 2 more N-S services to that grouping so you begin to build a network, then another E-W one.

After that, a core network of 24-hour service should be up and running.

 

[ARG1]

Well, this from a cursory look at some weekday data (not an expert). Viva Blue is quite a long route North of Bernard, it's not always that busy. Generally the southbound buses still have many seats North of Bernard. It's much more common to have fuller buses going North from Finch terminal.

Even in your case a more common Blue B bus means you can easily take that empty bus instead from Bernard. And they're also increasing midday service not just rush hour. They can always also increase Viva Blue service in the future. They can also increase Viva Blue service off peak when the Viva Blue B branch isn't running.

The thing is its not just rush hours. Even at like 12pm, the Newmarket Busses are typically packed when compared to the Bernard busses.

 

[ARG1]

Having just thoroughly lambasted YRT not 24 hours ago, I have to say these look to be 2 of the most constructive service improvements I've seen from them.

It really brings 2 routes/corridors to every 15M or better from early through evening, at least on weekdays.

VIVA purple still has some pretty atrocious service on the weekends from what I can see.

But forward motion all the same.

I'd like to see a program for the next round of improvement finish getting these services up to every 15M or better 6am-11pm M-F, and 8am-11pm on weekends, with 20M or better, 6am-1am, every day.

The step after that is to add at least 2 more N-S services to that grouping so you begin to build a network, then another E-W one.

After that, a core network of 24-hour service should be up and running.

Viva Purple still isn't that great, namely that because the branches are reverse branching in the middle of the route, it often means that the combined section has very irregular service westbound. That 13m combined headways often ends up as 2 busses 5m apart, followed by the next bus being 20m away.

 

[Wm Perkins Bull]

The thing is its not just rush hours. Even at like 12pm, the Newmarket Busses are typically packed when compared to the Bernard busses.

People continue to remain shocked that frequent service is rewarded by solid ridership. If York Region actually went big on bus service, by a similar percent as BT and MiWay have done this year, then YRT would likely experience significant ridership increase.