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VIA Rail

Legislation would help. But it's also a bit of a silver bullet to far too many railfans. There's no real substitute for investment. And since we have to learn to walk before we run, people have to expect that our first large projects will be expensive, less value for money than elsewhere and probably less service. We need to get through HFR because that is the only way. Success builds on success.

I have no illusions, but giving VIA the legal right to sign contracts and borrow money (against its own assets, rather than as federal government debt) might open some doors. As would being able to set its own service plans without a trip to the Minister's office.

Of course, that might be offset by a less generous subdsidy - and that would be lethal in many respects.

Just so long as we don't paint the status quo as a reasonable and sensible strategy, I can live with it over other alternatives. The devil you know, I guess....

- Paul
 
Doesnt mean that new legislation that addresses your above concerns cant be tabled and passed. Unfortunately CP and CN just has them by the balls and the feds have no spine to break free of them.

Has it occured to you that meaningful new legislation often has a price tag attached (and conversely, meaningless legislations designed for posturing often doesn't)? Laws aren't the panacea if you aren't doing anything with it.

See @crs1026 - he said it best.

Fundamentally at this point in time passenger rail in Canada is a money-losing business - there is no business case for a national private operator unless and until there is a critical mass of ridership. Also, keep in mind why VIA started in the first place - basically as the chunks that private (and soon to be private) rail operators didn't want to deal with.

AoD
 
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Has it occured to you that meaningful new legislation often has a price tag attached (and conversely, meaningless legislations designed for posturing often doesn't)? Laws aren't the panacea if you aren't doing anything with it.

See @crs1026 - he said it best.

Fundamentally at this point in time passenger rail in Canada is a money-losing business - there is no business case for a national private operator unless and until there is a critical mass of ridership. Also, keep in mind why VIA started in the first place - basically as the chunks that private (and soon to be private) rail operators didn't want to deal with.

AoD
Why does it have to be national? Can it not be separated on regional lines? Why cant the corridor service be sold/privatized off and the other regsions stillr remain under via control until they have the means?
There was an earlier comment on "walk before run" but when via is essentially shackled in the play pen by the feds and only let out to play a few hours a day, with no walking or running possible. That is the most frustrating part.
 
Why does it have to be national? Can it not be separated on regional lines? Why cant the corridor service be sold/privatized off and the other regsions stillr remain under via control until they have the means?
There was an earlier comment on "walk before run" but when via is essentially shackled in the play pen by the feds and only let out to play a few hours a day, with no walking or running possible. That is the most frustrating part.

Because why would any sane business want these parts that requires even more subsidies? They are non-viable without government funding. Like @kEiThZ said, don't salivate at other countries without understanding their contexts.

AoD
 
I have no illusions, but giving VIA the legal right to sign contracts and borrow money (against its own assets, rather than as federal government debt) might open some doors. As would being able to set its own service plans without a trip to the Minister's office.

Of course, that might be offset by a less generous subdsidy - and that would be lethal in many respects.

Just so long as we don't paint the status quo as a reasonable and sensible strategy, I can live with it over other alternatives. The devil you know, I guess....

- Paul
I'm not convinced they would have enough assets to give them access to much capital. And you are right - why would the government continue with subsidies at the current level or formula if it was able to raise its own money.
 
Why does it have to be national? Can it not be separated on regional lines? Why cant the corridor service be sold/privatized off and the other regsions stillr remain under via control until they have the means?
There was an earlier comment on "walk before run" but when via is essentially shackled in the play pen by the feds and only let out to play a few hours a day, with no walking or running possible. That is the most frustrating part.
The revenue from corridor service offsets the costs of the regional and remote services. I can't think of one that would ever get to the point of 'having the means' without raising fares to non-viable levels. So long as we have the population density and distribution that we have, passenger rail will always be a money loser. Heck, even urban commuter transit requires public funds.
 
The Corridor can be split off. But....

1) It's still not profitable. HFR was supposed to make only Corridor East financially sustainable. And that's after $4-6B (now $10-12B) in capital investment.

2) Taking away the Corridor could substantially amplify the cumulative losses from other VIA operations. Compelling cuts or fare increases elsewhere. I'm sure this sounds fine to Torontonians. Most of the country's voters aren't in Toronto though.

Put it this way, would you be okay with downtown Toronto residents advocating for the separation of the subway and bus network just to improve subway construction financing? How well would that idea poll across the 416?
 
The Corridor can be split off. But....

1) It's still not profitable. HFR was supposed to make only Corridor East financially sustainable. And that's after $4-6B (now $10-12B) in capital investment.

2) Taking away the Corridor could substantially amplify the cumulative losses from other VIA operations. Compelling cuts or fare increases elsewhere. I'm sure this sounds fine to Torontonians. Most of the country's voters aren't in Toronto though.

Put it this way, would you be okay with downtown Toronto residents advocating for the separation of the subway and bus network just to improve subway construction financing? How well would that idea poll across the 416?

I agree w/the substance of what you're saying; but think its important to add, however, sadly, that VIA rail simply isn't a voting issue to most Canadians.
Service is anemic or absent in most of the country.

The only voters outside the corridor for whom VIA is a voting issue are those using the remote services, and perhaps the odd maritimer; but that's really only a handful of seats.
Therein lies one of the great challenges for VIA, how to be politically relevant, when material service is absent from the majority of the country's geography.
 
Therein lies one of the great challenges for VIA, how to be politically relevant, when material service is absent from the majority of the country's geography.

Improving linkages between core cities where it makes sense to is pretty much the only way - that's where the majority of the population (hence potential support) resides.

AoD
 
Improving linkages between core cities where it makes sense to is pretty much the only way - that's where the majority of the population (hence potential support) resides.

AoD
But there are other cities that need more service and maybe they can build more "corridors" between them.

Like Calgary to Edmonton.
Calgary to Banff and Lake Louise
Toronto to North Bay or Sudbury
North Bay to Winnipeg
Toronto to Niagara Falls
Toronto to Chicago
 
But there are other cities that need more service and maybe they can build more "corridors" between them.

Like Calgary to Edmonton.
Calgary to Banff and Lake Louise
Toronto to North Bay or Sudbury
North Bay to Winnipeg
Toronto to Niagara Falls
Toronto to Chicago
Cities and people require "mobility" (i.e. the ability to get from A to B in a convenient and affordable manner), not "rail transportation" (or any other mode of transportation). The purpose of rail (and any other mode of transportation) is to provide transportation services wherever they can be provided profitably (i.e. after government involvement through regulation, taxation and subsidies). Therefore, there is no market for rail services on routes like Toronto-North Bay/Sudbury, Sudbury-Winnipeg or Edmonton-Calgary, where passenger rail service would inevitably be less convenient (i.e. less frequent, reliable and fast) than the established modes (driving, bus and often also: the airplane)...
 
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Cities and people require "mobility" (i.e. the ability to get from A to B in a convenient and affordable manner), not "rail transportation" (or any other mode of transportation).

Agreed.

The purpose of rail (and any other mode of transportation) is to provide transportation services wherever they can be provided profitably (i.e. after government involvement through regulation, taxation and subsidies).

While I understand your point, I do think its awkwardly worded. Profitable and subsidized aren't typically used to describe the same thing (though, in all truth, they often go tightly together).

But also I question whether purpose from the point of view of society goes w/the word profit. The link to profit is tied to the provider (particularly a private-sector provider).

Therefore, there is no market for rail services on routes like Toronto-North Bay/Sudbury, Sudbury-Winnipeg or Edmonton-Calgary, where passenger rail service would inevitably be less convenient (i.e. less frequent, reliable and fast) than the established modes (driving, bus and often also: the airplane)...

Well.........

There is no profitable market, based on the current subsidy and current infrastructure on offer would seem a more accurate statement.
Its entirely fair to say, that VIA cannot raises its profile or improve its financial position by running the services discussed above, in the absence of greater subsidy and infrastructure investment.

That's 100% true.

Clearly VIA would not make money running Toronto-Sudbury or North Bay - Winnipeg as things stand. Neither of those services could turn a profit currently, and even if much better and faster service were able to be achieved, its rather unlikely the services would break even.

But some of the discussed pairings, Edmonton-Calgary for sure; and Calgary-Banff could be popular, and politically advantageous to operate; particularly the latter, relative to required investment.
Edmonton-Calgary almost certainly requires a substantial investment (HSR/HFR++) to be competitive w/current trip offers, and providing that is a political choice, not one open to VIA.

****

I do think its important to make a delineation here.

There are services which don't make financial sense to operate for VIA in the current circumstances, with the current subsidy available.
But some of those services do make sense with the right investments, and there is a case to be made for those; its just that the choice to get there is made at a level above VIA staff/management.
Some people here would argue though, and I might be one, that its incumbent on VIA management to make that case proactively; and not to let its network atrophy with what might be perceived to be a certain degree of apathy.
 
Ever heard of climate change?

I have some doubts as to how climate friendly running a route with fundamentally low ridership (with little potential for increase, given the size of populations involved and demand) will be, relative to transporting the same number of individuals with electric vehicles. And if you decide to electrify the route (which comes at a huge capital cost, but let's entertain that for a moment), you'd have to take into account the lifecycle GHG emissions of doing that as well.

Different problems requires different solutions - and rail isn't it for everything; it simply can't be competitive in all settings in a highly dispersed country like ours.

AoD
 
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