VIA Rail

[crs1026]

The purpose of the recent test was to test the RDC's compatibility with CTC signalling systems that had been installed since the RDC's were discontinued in Southwestern Ontario. There is some of that on the Windsor line and some on the Stratford-Sarnia line. That may have led some to asssume that the RDC's are going to run both lines. That appears unlikely, there are only about 3 cars available. A Sarnia-London shuttle that connects with a Windsor train in London is possible, and a good application for RDC's. I'm a bit skeptical that VIA wants to put RDC's back on the St Mary's leg considering the snow drifting problems they always had through there.

In terms of train frequency, it would be hard for CN to argue that it can't accommodate the same frequency of service to Sarnia that existed only a few years ago. CN runs fewer (although longer) freight trains than when Sarnia saw 2 trains each way daily. The bigger issue is east of Kitchener, where the sidings are gone and there are now GO trains in increasing numbers.

I would take the media reports as accurate - but note that VIA is "requesting", nothing more. "No" may remain "no".

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

In terms of train frequency, it would be hard for CN to argue that it can't accommodate the same frequency of service to Sarnia that existed only a few years ago. CN runs fewer (although longer) freight trains than when Sarnia saw 2 trains each way daily. The bigger issue is east of Kitchener, where the sidings are gone and there are now GO trains in increasing numbers.

Given the plan is to run from Kitchener to Toronto in the AM peak and Toronto to Kitchener in the PM peak, then the lack of sidings shouldn't be an issue.

(though aren't there still sidings at Shantz Station and west of Guelph station near the Hanlon?

 

[crs1026]

Given the plan is to run from Kitchener to Toronto in the AM peak and Toronto to Kitchener in the PM peak, then the lack of sidings shouldn't be an issue.

(though aren't there still sidings at Shantz Station and west of Guelph station near the Hanlon?

There are rails in the weeds, yes. But these are not cut into the signalling system. They are just storage tracks now. They are uncontrolled, which makes them useless as places to hold meets between trains.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

There are rails in the weeds, yes. But these are not cut into the signalling system. They are just storage tracks now. They are uncontrolled, which makes them useless as places to hold meets between trains.

I see no weeds here, unlike other sidings, such as in Guelph,

See https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4938761,-80.3734558,192m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en and https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.5337982,-80.2693906,192m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

Why would they have not signalled well-used sidings - unlike Acton, where you can clearly see the weeds. And Guelph station (where VIA trains used to pass each other in PM rush), where there's no longer a platform on the second track.

 

[crs1026]

I see no weeds here, unlike other sidings, such as in Guelph,

See https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4938761,-80.3734558,192m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en and https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.5337982,-80.2693906,192m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

Why would they have not signalled well-used sidings - unlike Acton, where you can clearly see the weeds. And Guelph station (where VIA trains used to pass each other in PM rush), where there's no longer a platform on the second track.

The first of those is the new P+H grain elevator yard at Breslau. It's not a passing track - it's new track constructed to serve the grain elevator. It's usually full of covered hoppers, as you can see in the pictures. The passing track is gone.

The second is also yard trackage. At that point, the new CTC has only one switch, and that is to control movements to/from the old Fergus Sub. There is a daily freight train that goes up to north Guelph to switch customers. You need a control point to govern its entry/exit from the main line.

Why did they not build in anything more? Because VIA never intended to build it at all, and had no funding for more. Pressure from Transport Canada was reportedly the original impetus. The Guelph Sub has bolted rail, not ribbon rail. The key purpose of railway signals is to assure "track continuity" - ie it detects breaks in the rail or joint bars. TC got nervous - the rail was so old that the risk of not being able to detect breaks was no longer acceptable, given it was being used by passenger trains at speed.

The second - but lesser, in railway space - purpose of signalling is traffic control. All GO needed at the time was block signalling so its fleet could run in one direction at a time with spacing between trains. The manual blocking/radio protection for GO trains that CTC replaced on the Stouffville, Barrie, and Kitchener lines was pretty unsophisticated, ie risky. TC was nervous about this, I'm told, and rightly so. GEXR relied on cellphone communication for protecting trains with working authority - there were some failures of this system.

Anyways, VIA got told to put in signalling, but had not planned on doing so, and had no funding for it.

There is passing track capability at Stratford, and (sort of) at Kitchener. All the freight railway needed was "headroom" capability for switching. There are "hold out" control points for that. There is a full signalled siding at Kelly's, which is between St Mary's and London. VIA does use that passing siding for meets. Why that one was put in, and no others, I don't know. Perhaps, since GO had already done an EA to double track the line, VIA figured it would all be redone eventually.

All of the above is second hand but from reliable sources.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

The first of those is the new P+H grain elevator yard at Breslau. It's not a passing track - it's new track constructed to serve the grain elevator. It's usually full of covered hoppers, as you can see in the pictures. The passing track is gone.

Ah, interesting. That's why it looks so new. Haven't driven down there in a while! I've always loved how that bridge structure is clearly built for 2 tracks - even though it looks 100 years old. I'm not sure if it was ever double track.

Though I wouldn't have called Shantz Station "Breslau" - but perhaps I lived in KW for too long ...

The second is also yard trackage. At that point, the new CTC has only one switch, and that is to control movements to/from the old Fergus Sub. There is a daily freight train that goes up to north Guelph to switch customers. You need a control point to govern its entry/exit from the main line.

Thanks.

Why did they not build in anything more? Because VIA never intended to build it at all, and had no funding for more. Pressure from Transport Canada was reportedly the original impetus. The Guelph Sub has bolted rail, not ribbon rail. The key purpose of railway signals is to assure "track continuity" - ie it detects breaks in the rail or joint bars. TC got nervous - the rail was so old that the risk of breaks in the rail - especially given passenger train speeds - was no longer acceptable.

The second - but lesser, in railway space - purpose of signalling is traffic control. All GO needed at the time was block signalling so its fleet could run in one direction at a time with spacing between trains. The manual blocking/radio protection for GO trains that CTC replaced on the Stouffville, Barrie, and Kitchener lines was pretty unsophisticated, ie risky. TC was nervous about this, I'm told, and rightly so. GEXR relied on cellphone communication for protecting trains with working authority - there were some failures of this system.

Anyways, VIA got told to put in signalling, but had not planned on doing so, and had no funding for it.

There is passing track capability at Stratford, and (sort of) at Kitchener. All the freight railway needed was "headroom" capability for switching. There are "hold out" control points for that. There is a full signalled siding at Kelly's, which is between St Mary's and London. VIA does use that passing siding for meets. Why that one was put in, and no others, I don't know. Perhaps, since GO had already done an EA to double track the line, VIA figured it would all be redone eventually.

All of the above is second hand but from reliable sources.

Thanks for all that. All very frustrating that they can't even run the simple reverse peak service they ran back in 1990. So short-sighted.

 

[ShonTron]

But most of the Guelph Sub is welded rail, not bolted. You know when you're riding on bolted rail, and I've been on many trains from Toronto to Guelph and Kitchener. The track is bolted west of Stratford, but GO certainly doesn't operate that far.

Passing tracks at Acton, Guelph, and at Shantz are definitely needed though.

 

[crs1026]

But most of the Guelph Sub is welded rail, not bolted. You know when you're riding on bolted rail, and I've been on many trains from Toronto to Guelph and Kitchener. The track is bolted west of Stratford, but GO certainly doesn't operate that far.
.

That's correct, although I believe there are some short stretches of bolted rail remaining on the Guelph Sub - around Acton, for one.

- Paul

 

[robmausser]

Why would they run from London-Windsor? There is already 4 trains a day there, as opposed to only 2 from London to Kitchener - which I'd think would have more demand.

No idea just quoting the news.

http://blackburnnews.com/sarnia/sarnia-news/2015/06/17/via-rail-expanding-service-for-sarnia/

The service will be ...two-car commuter trains running between Windsor, London and Sarnia.

 

[nfitz]

No idea just quoting the news.

http://blackburnnews.com/sarnia/sarnia-news/2015/06/17/via-rail-expanding-service-for-sarnia/

Interesting ... I just don't see Windsor, unless they run a new service through Wallaceburg to Sarnia - is that track even passable by passenger?

 

[crs1026]

VIA owns just about everything past London to Windsor, so they can run as many as they like.

Sarnia-London-Windsor-London-Sarnia (or Windsor-London-Sarnia-London-Windsor) is quite doable for a pair of RDC's. You leverage your connections that way. I'd guess that CN would oppose any additional runs London-Brantford-Aldershot.

- Paul

 

[ShonTron]

Interesting ... I just don't see Windsor, unless they run a new service through Wallaceburg to Sarnia - is that track even passable by passenger?

The CSX track is abandoned between Dresden and Chatham, but the rails are still mostly in place. With the decimation of Wallaceburg's industries, there's very little traffic on the line, except within Chemical Valley itself. It hasn't had passenger service since the 1930s, I believe.

 

[Urban Sky]

VIA owns just about everything past London to Windsor, so they can run as many as they like.
- Paul

VIA Rail owns the tracks between west of Chatham to east of Windsor. You therefore still have to deal with CN to obtain any additional frequencies for VIA...

 

[David Brake]

Just FYI I have reached out to Via Rail to get more details about the recent interviews done with its CEO about getting HFR going. Expect a story on the site in the next few days - probably an opinion piece. I moved back to Toronto from London UK in 2014 so perhaps you can imagine my views on Via's current service!

 

[robmausser]

Just FYI I have reached out to Via Rail to get more details about the recent interviews done with its CEO about getting HFR going. Expect a story on the site in the next few days - probably an opinion piece. I moved back to Toronto from London UK in 2014 so perhaps you can imagine my views on Via's current service!

I distinctly remember in college taking the Via home and a british dude quite vocally complaining on how slow the train was haha.