VIA Rail

[Urban Sky]

Add up car seats x number of cars. Use VIA's pages for coaches. That's what yields about that many seats. If I'm wrong, I'd love more data. That's why I am asking, what is VIA's capacity in the Corridor today.

And I get that there are constraints on which locomotives are used or operational practices. Again, that's why I am asking questions. They had previously suggested that 40 locomotives need to replaced in the corridor. And they're only choosing to buy 32 replacements. That's a 25% cut. I'd love to understand why that difference is there.

Unfortunately, I can't provide any seat numbers here, as they might be mistaken as an official number. Nevertheless, I believe that all the numbers needed to approximate the current seat count are somewhat available for you:

Quote from most recent Corporate Plan (pp. 1+6): "In the first quarter of 2015, VIA Rail retained the services of an independent international rolling stock consultancy firm to assist in assessing the condition and requirements of its Quebec – Windsor Corridor fleet, representing 200 of 495 total pieces of equipment. [...] VIA Rail operates four types of rail cars in the Corridor: the LRC (Light, Rapid, Comfortable), the stainless steel HEP 1 and HEP 2, and the Renaissance."

With the 40 locomotives you quoted, that would leave 160 cars currently assigned to the Corridor.

Let's assume that all LRC and HEP 2 equipment is assigned to the Corridor:

• Number of seats and quantity in VIA Rail's roster for LRC Business cars can be found here.
• Number of seats and quantity in VIA Rail's roster for LRC Economy cars can be found here.
  
• Number of seats and quantity in VIA Rail's roster for HEP-2 Business cars can be found here.
  
• Number of seats and quantity in VIA Rail's roster for HEP-2 Economy cars can be found here.

How many units and seats have we counted so far?

Okay, let's figure out how many baggage cars there are operating on the Ottawa-Montreal-Quebec route by looking at the weekday trains (i.e. ignoring weekend departures) which show a baggage car in the most recent VIA timetable:

• #37: Quebec 13:00 to Fallowfield 19:34
• #29: Quebec 17:45 to Montreal 20:58
• #20: Montreal 06:20 to Quebec 09:43
• #24: Fallowfield 09:50 to Quebec 16:26

Then, let's figure out how many baggage cars there are operating elsewhere in the Corridor by again looking at the weekday trains which show a baggage car in the timetable (you may want to check that list yourself, as the days of operation are rather complex):

• #63: Montreal 08:55 to Toronto 14:07 (not Thursday)
• #65: Montreal 10:55 to Toronto 16:17 (Monday and Thursday only)
• #64: Toronto 11:30 to Montreal 16:47 (not Monday)
• #668: Toronto 17:57 to Montreal 22:56 (not Wednesday)
• #44: Toronto 14:20 to Ottawa 18:46 (Tuesday only)
• #45: Ottawa 10:30 to Toronto 14:48 (Wednesday only)
• #83: Toronto 16:35 to London 18:49 (not Thursday and Friday)
• #75: Toronto 17:30 to Windsor 21:56 (Monday and Thursday only)
• #82: London 06:25 to Toronto 08:35 (not Monday and Friday)
• #70: Windsor 05:30 to Toronto 10:04 (Tuesday and Friday only)

Let's assume that baggage cars on the Ottawa-Montreal-Quebec route and on the rest of the Corridor are different fleets (Renaissance vs. HEP) and therefore add one to each number of baggage cars, in order to allow for one spare. Also add one Renaissance service car for every Renaissance baggage car you've already entered into your fleet count.

Assuming that the seat count for Baggage cars and Service cars is zero, how many units and seats have we counted so far?

Now, determine the number of revenue cars you find realistic for a Renaissance trainset and multiply that number with the number of Renaissance baggage cars you calculated above (to have exactly one Renaissance trainset spare).

• Number of seats per Renaissance Business car can be found here.
• Number of seats per Renaissance Economy car can be found here.

Finally, determine how many seats are missing to 9600 and how many cars are missing to 160 and divide the first number by the last. Then, browse through VIA Rail's official roster and sanity-check your calculated number of seats per car...

Please don't hesitate to ask for assistance, if needed...

PS: If anyone finds the cycling exercise with the baggage cars interesting and enjoyable to solve, I can let you know next time VIA Rail is hiring someone for the Network Planning department...

 

[kEiThZ]

With the 40 locomotives you quoted, that would leave 160 cars currently assigned to the Corridor.

Let's assume that all LRC and HEP 2 equipment is assigned to the Corridor:

• Number of seats and quantity in VIA Rail's roster for LRC Business cars can be found here.
• Number of seats and quantity in VIA Rail's roster for LRC Economy cars can be found here.
  
• Number of seats and quantity in VIA Rail's roster for HEP-2 Business cars can be found here.
  
• Number of seats and quantity in VIA Rail's roster for HEP-2 Economy cars can be found here.

How many units and seats have we counted so far?

Now, determine the number of revenue cars you find realistic for a Renaissance trainset and multiply that number with the number of Renaissance baggage cars you calculated above (to have exactly one Renaissance trainset spare).

• Number of seats per Renaissance Business car can be found here.
• Number of seats per Renaissance Economy car can be found here.

That's exactly what I did. I added up all the numbers of coaches and the seats they have:

26(44)+71(68)+10(56)+23(68)+14(48)+33(48) = 10 352 for 177 coaches (average of 58.49 per coach)

Since VIA says they use 160 coaches in the corridor, let's scale down: 160 coaches at 59 pax each. That's 9440. So bit of a math error from 9600. But that's about how I got 9600. I assumed the rest were either spares or baggage cars.

If I assume that all the train numbers listed above have a baggage car (so 14 bag cars), that leaves 146 coaches. At an average of 58.49 seats, that's 8540 seats. So that would be about a 6% increase in capacity, I guess. That makes me a little more optimistic I guess.

But that does not seem like a substantial capacity increase at all. Is VIA simply planning on increasing seat-km with speed on HFR? And is the fleet planning accounting for frequency needs of HFR in this order? Assuming 4 hrs from Toronto to Montreal, you'd need about about 18 trains to run hourly service on just Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal, by my count. Another 6 for Montreal-Quebec City. Which leaves 8 trains, for Toronto-Windsor and spares and any sort of maintenance pipeline. That seems a little tight to me. But I'm no network planner.

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

Via Rail halts passenger service after CN train derails near Kingston, Ont.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/via-rail-train-derailment-kingston-1.4561264

 

[DSC]

Wouldn't happen with a dedicated corridor...

Well, it probably wouldn't happen if a freight derailed (unless the tracks were adjacent) but VIA rail also has derailments and accidents so a dedicated track or tracks are not an absolute guarantee of 100% perfect service.

 

[steveintoronto]

Wouldn't happen with a dedicated corridor...

With provisos. Bear in mind that HFR will most likely host freight, it's part of the sales appeal, both to investors and locales served, but it would most likely be temporally separated, and due to the nature of it being mostly express freight, much less likely to occur considering that the rolling stock and track would be of a higher calibre. Temporally separated freight might be common stock, but being at night, a freight derailment would be less likely to foul daytime schedules. VIA were back to normal by this morning.

 

[kEiThZ]

Wouldn't happen with a dedicated corridor...

Freight derailments? No. Other derailments? Maybe. Accidents happen.

However, VIA's safety record should improve tremendously with its own corridor.

Also, there's probably a business case to be made to allow some freight on the HFR corridor:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_TGV_La_Poste

It's not high speed. But there might be enough of a business case for say Canada Post to offer same day delivery in Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal. Or the whole corridor eventually.

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

With provisos. Bear in mind that HFR will most likely host freight, it's part of the sales appeal, both to investors and locales served, but it would most likely be temporally separated, and due to the nature of it being mostly express freight, much less likely to occur considering that the rolling stock and track would be of a higher calibre. Temporally separated freight might be common stock, but being at night, a freight derailment would be less likely to foul daytime schedules. VIA were back to normal by this morning.

I had to chuckle when I read that part, we're talking about CN/CP and their rolling stock right? Not Deutsch Bahn Cargo freight standards

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

Freight derailments? No. Other derailments? Maybe. Accidents happen.

However, VIA's safety record should improve tremendously with its own corridor.

Also, there's probably a business case to be made to allow some freight on the HFR corridor:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_TGV_La_Poste

It's not high speed. But there might be enough of a business case for say Canada Post to offer same day delivery in Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal. Or the whole corridor eventually.

That would be an interesting business case. I wonder if Via Rail has thought of that? Probably not as usual when it comes to transportation and the typical Canadian mindset of "we can't do it." But it would be intriguing if Via Rail has approached Canada Post about it, or maybe one or a few of the couriers.

 

[Urban Sky]

That would be an interesting business case.

Just out of interest, why would this idea fail in France, but succeed in Canada?

 

[kEiThZ]

Just out of interest, why would this idea fail in France, but succeed in Canada?

Too much capacity at too high a cost. Also different context?

The unique thing about Canada is how much of our population and economy is concentrated on the Quebec-Windsor Corridor.

Could that make the case for high speed freight? Not sure. But don't see any reason why VIA and Canada Post should not study it. At a minimum, a nightly train or two might save Canada Post shipping costs. And if that helps make the business case for VIA, even marginally better, great.

 

[steveintoronto]

I had to chuckle when I read that part, we're talking about CN/CP and their rolling stock right? Not Deutsch Bahn Cargo freight standards

Once line speeds go above 125 mph, different regs pertain. I can't think of any high speed line in Europe where freight is banned, albeit some might exist, ironically in France. Needless to say, the wagons used would have to be certified for the track class. This would be for HFR and/or run-through onto the Ont HSR.

If it works for others, it will work here. The US NEC also hosts freight, and not temporally separated either.

Financial Times:

https://www.ft.com/content/21a6eac6-742f-11e1-bcec-00144feab49a

[...]
The corridor is used by many Amtrak trains, including the high-speed Acela Express, intercity trains, and several long-distance trains. Most of the corridor also has frequent commuter rail service, operated by the MBTA, Shore Line East, Metro-North Railroad, New Jersey Transit, SEPTA, and MARC. Several companies run freight trains over sections of the NEC.

Much of the line is built for speeds higher than the 79 mph (127 km/h) maximum allowed on many U.S. tracks. Amtrak operates intercity Northeast Regional and Keystone Service trains at up to 125 mph (201 km/h), as well as North America's only high-speed train, the Acela Express, which runs up to 150 mph (241 km/h) on a few sections in Massachusetts and Rhode Island. Acela covers the 225 miles (362 km) between New York and Washington, D.C., in under 3 hours, and the 229 miles (369 km) between New York and Boston in under 3.5 hours.[3][4] Under Amtrak's $151 billion Northeast Corridor plan, which hopes to roughly halve travel times by 2040, trips between New York and Washington via Philadelphia would take 94 minutes.[5][6] [...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Corridor

Overhead and trackage rights rates are reputed to be very high for freight on the NEC, but none-the-less, it exists, and due to the many sidings and much of it four-tracked, freight is run concurrently with Acela.

 

[Urban Sky]

Once line speeds go above 125 mph, different regs pertain. I can't think of any high speed line in Europe where freight is banned, albeit some might exist, ironically in France.

The HSR line between Cologne and Frankfurt is one such example:

The line's grades of up to four percent require trains with a high power-to-weight ratio which is currently only met by third-generation InterCityExpress trains.

 

[dowlingm]

It was pointed out on another forum yesterday that some US freight roads operate FRA Class 5 track (ATS signalled allowing 90mph passenger trains) because they carry relatively high speed (70mph) freight. It would be useful if there was (by means of co-production or otherwise) an ability to move slower/hazardous trains onto routes and slots that interacted with passenger traffic to the least possible extent. That would require CN and CP to cooperate (for example between Oshawa and Belleville), but they already cooperate in directional running in Vancouver and south of Sudbury so maybe there are possibilities?

There are also occasional murmurs about the USPS taking space on Amtrak services but it never seems to come to anything. Am surprised that refit as postal trains hasn’t surfaced more often in “what to do with the old Acelas when the new ones arrive” discussions.

 

[crs1026]

I can't see HFR attracting either Canada Post or courier traffic in the corridor, considering that the material handling costs of transshipping are avoidable and would kill the economics of a mail train.

Once the mail is in a highway trailer at Gateway, it might as well just carry on to its destination. Draying it to a train station and transloading just isn't efficient.

Now, I would love to see spurs into Gateway, and into all the courier termini up at Pearson....and a nightly Fedex train from Malton to the dock of the Fedex terminal in Montreal. But I'm not holding my breath.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

A number of nations run high-speed freight, never dedicated freight tracks though, always as 'add-ons' over higher-speed passenger lines. It mustn't be forgotten that the 'Peterborough Route' raison d'etre is partially rail freight service being restored to many of the locales along the line. That would most likely be temporal at night and regular speed freight.

Canada Post Office would not likely be a customer, but premium express would, as in the UK, Sweden and other nations (Austria and Switzerland, for instance, run high-speed freights).

Parcel service on passenger is a distinct possibility.

Here's the Swiss example:

In domestic freight services, FDRI will primarily bring about improvements in quality. It will secure current capacities for freight – and, where necessary, selectively add to them. On the east-west axis FDRI will enable a ‘freight clockface timetable’ to be implemented, with perceptible cuts in transit times. The acceleration will be particularly significant for the express freight trains operated for Swiss Post and the major Swiss retail chains.

https://www.globalrailwayreview.com...ued-development-of-switzerlands-rail-network/

A general analysis, albeit dated, but what Sweden has based her models on:

High-speed rail freight Sub-report in Efficient train systems for freight transport
KTH Railway Group Report 0512 Stockholm 2005

https://www.kth.se/polopoly_fs/1.87134!/Menu/general/column-content/attachment/0512_inlaga.pdf

Description of today:

Thomas Tydal, engineer, instructor, examiner (in Sweden)
Answered Dec 28 2015 · Author has 583 answers and 2m answer views

I don't know how it compares to other countries, but the fastest freight trains in Sweden travel at 100 mph. They carry mail, which is time critical, and light-weight, so the electricity costs are still low compared to the regular, heavy, freight trains that travel at 60 mph.

In Sweden, the government owns the rail lines, so any train company is allowed to operate, for a fee. The fee is based on weight and distance.

The mail company chose rail transport over air and trucks to reduce carbon emissions.

While the top speed of the mainlines where the mail is transported is 125 mph, I think it is unlikely that they will go faster than 100 mph since that is the top speed of the cars they are using, and new cars built for 125 mph are much more expensive.

https://www.quora.com/Do-high-speed-cargo-trains-exist-anywhere

Many other examples on-line, the Chunnel through services quite popular.

Here's another: (and right up-to-date)

Freight firm’s backing for new high speed rail school
Published on 08-02-2018 at 08:57
A new UK high speed rail training centre is ‘an enormous opportunity for the whole industry’, says the boss of the country’s biggest cargo operator, DB Cargo UK.

With it’s Doncaster base right on the doorstep of the National College for High Speed Rail, DB Cargo will be one of the facility’s key industry partners, helping produce the next generation of highly-skilled rail professionals.

Clair Mowbray, the college’s Chief Executive, said: “The National College is focused on delivering the skills training that is required to modernise rail. The UK’s engineering workforce is currently falling short by around 69,000 engineers every year, with a growing older workforce which currently lacks diversity.

Skills
“It is our challenge to work towards solving the skills gap that Britain faces as it invests billions of pounds into modernising the rail network and wider transport infrastructure. By working with industry partners like DB Cargo we can ensure the range of opportunities reflect the needs of all aspects of the rail industry.”

Hans-Georg Werner, Chief Executive of DB Cargo UK, said he’d been ‘very excited’ by a recent visit to the new centre to discuss future opportunities for collaboration. It offers post-18 education and will cater both for those looking to develop current expertise in the industry and people wanting to retrain completely.

Development
Mr Werner said: “While the college has an important role to play in supporting the development of HS2 the state-of-the-art training and opportunities being offered here in Doncaster will be relevant to drivers, engineers and ground-staff across the entire UK rail network.”

“Here at DB Cargo UK we are leading the next generation of rail freight and we look forward to working closely with the college’s Chief Executive Clair Mowbray and her team on shaping the experience and opportunities they offer.”
[...]

https://www.railfreight.com/business/2018/02/08/db-cargo-uk-welcome-training-centre-draft/

Austria:

The Koralmbahn, the first entirely new railway line in the Second Austrian Republic has been under construction since 2006. It includes a new 33 km tunnel (the Koralmtunnel) connecting the cities of Klagenfurt and Graz. Primarily built for intermodal freight transport, it will also be used by passenger trains travelling at up to 250 km/h. The time taken to travel from Klagenfurt to Graz will be reduced from three hours to one hour. The Koralmbahn is expected to be operational by 2023.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Austria

California:

[...]
http://www.dot.ca.gov/newtech/resea...high-speed_rail_preliminary_investigation.pdf

Interesting that the authors of this paper have also found it difficult to assess the suitability of High Speed Rail Freight due to the lack of centralized publishing. Even the EU initiative is difficult to quantify: ( High Speed Freight on the European High Speed Railway Network https://cordis.europa.eu/project/rcn/37924_en.html )

From the Caltrans study:

[...]Gaps in Findings

While delivery of high-value cargo via HSR is not a new idea (France’s post office, La Poste, has been transporting mail via HSR for three decades using converted rail cars), we found limited analysis of the shared use of dedicated HSR networks to transport both passengers and freight. While such use is under consideration in China, and had been discussed for a proposed HSR line between Lisbon and Madrid, the impacts of shared use have not yet been addressed in the literature. The Euro Carex project in Europe is focusing on the use of HSR for transporting high-value cargo, but we have not identified publications or online information that address the impacts of passenger and high-value freight flows sharing a dedicated HSR network. Additional information may be available when this project is more fully launched in 2017 or 2018. [...]

http://www.dot.ca.gov/newtech/resea...high-speed_rail_preliminary_investigation.pdf

And of course, the prior discussed CRRC High Speed Passenger w/ freight below:
CRRC high-speed ‘intercontinental’ train combines passengers and freight
https://www.globalrailnews.com/2016...nental-train-combines-passengers-and-freight/

And last, but not least, Ivan climbs on board:
RUSSIAN Railways (RZD) says it is pressing ahead with the development of a concept for a high-speed freight train with the aim of capturing a slice of the market for high-value goods between China and Europe from air cargo operators.
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/high-speed/rzd-develops-plans-for-high-speed-rail-freight.html