VIA Rail

[steveintoronto]

...If this were somewhere other than Canada, I would argue for fixed consist with a loco at each end, but since this is a minimalist bare bones fleet strategy anyways, I would argue that VIA should have as few constraints on utilisation as possible. That means the loose car option has to remain, and one big loco on the fromt may be preferable to two smaller locos on each end. Perhaps dual ended locos have their place here - they dont need to be turned, and are still relied on in lots of other places.

- Paul

There's another option, rarely if ever mentioned, perhaps due to the impracticality of revisiting old construction, but there's the possibility of supplying 'unpowered locos' to use as trailer vans (cab cars), save for perhaps HEP supply since cab cars are required to have more mass than the coaches trailing them (some Cabbages were required to have concrete added for mass for more safety in a collision), but rather than using old locos to do this, use the current powered loco design less prime motor and drive motors on bogies, and add power to the unpowered ones later if/when needed.

Rather than VIA spec'ing this, it could be a bid option made by the manufacturer or vendor putting together a trainset from various suppliers. VIA's concern would be whether the loco manufacturer would still be in business come the time to power the loco shell, but that would be a concern anyway, no matter who and how any supply a bid.

Using the old F-40s would/could certainly be an option, albeit how they'd run at top speed on their old bogie design might be a concern, let alone coupling into a 'drawbar type' trainset unit that would be addressed better with 'like kind' trainset.

The Austrian coaches the Brightlines are based on do have driving trailers as options.

Berlin, Germany, 2008-Sep-23

The railjet from Siemens is the new premium train in the high speed fleet at Austrian Federal Railways (ÖBB) and, now, people from the industry and fairgoers will be able to board it for the first time at InnoTrans 2008. At this bi-annual show in Berlin the vendor will present a shortened ÖBB railjet train formation, consisting of three cars and a locomotive.

The standard configuration of the new ÖBB railjet is a seven-car set with a total of 408 seats in five different types of car: a driving trailer with premium class area where the seats can be adjusted to a reclining position; an open-plan car for the first class; a Bistro car; and four open-plan cars in the economy class, one of them with a family area. The Bistro car accommodates the area reserved for wheelchair users, who can access it via lifts at the car entrance doors with the help of the train crew. All cars are fully air-conditioned.

Every railjet is hauled by a Taurus locomotive and is operated in push/pull mode. A rake is 186 meters long and, counting the locomotive, even as much as 205 meters in length. In their current configuration the trains are designed to run at 230 km/h and meet all requirements in international high speed rail traffic. SF400 type bogies are used, which have also been in service for the ICE2 in Germany for years.
[...]

https://www.siemens.com/press/en/pr...]=IM&content[]=TS&content[]=ICRL&content[]=MO

Not sure if that's the exact type Siemen's modelled for the North Am market, but it's the same family.

See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railjet

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

For a push-pull, I'm guessing that Siemens will try to offer their Viaggio Comfort coaches and paired up with a locomotive such the one found on Florida's Brightline.

http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mob...es/viaggio-comfort/pages/viaggio-comfort.aspx

Here are the PDF's with the coach layouts (ÖBB/ČD railjet)
http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mob...nger-coaches/viaggio-comfort-cdrailjet-en.pdf
http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mob...ions/passenger-coaches/viaggio-comfort-en.pdf
http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mob...enger-coaches/viaggio-comfort-for-oebb-en.pdf

ÖBB/ČD Railjet uses the Siemens' Taurus with the Viaggio Comfort.

If there are concerns about the direction of seats, perhaps we can take a page from Asia with the reversible seats:

 

[kEiThZ]

@crs1026

Does any company make cabbage cars from new? Or was that a special effort for Amtrak to recycle old locos? Seems like a solid idea.

I've also wondered if they could just go double length and be bidirectional. 16 trains with 2 locos. Not sure if the frequencies work outout t way though.

 

[crs1026]

@crs1026

Does any company make cabbage cars from new? Or was that a special effort for Amtrak to recycle old locos? Seems like a solid idea.

I'm sure there would be bidders - but there are plenty of old locos available, which would be much cheaper. By the time you strip out the old prime mover, alternator/generator, and all the appliances, you are down to the bare frame anyways. I can't imagine any advantage to having the remaining components built new.

I've also wondered if they could just go double length and be bidirectional. 16 trains with 2 locos. Not sure if the frequencies work outout t way though.

They could, but could they sell that many seats on every train? Certainly, in places such as the UK one sees trains of 12+ coaches with locos at each end, running at 125 mph. VIA's strategy of smaller, more frequent trains strikes me as the most marketable for the next decade or more while VIA really builds its profile. We need that incremental order option to be able to meet demand as ridership grows. Financing those additional cars may prove to be much easier, once the base ridership is proven.

- Paul

 

[kEiThZ]

For a push-pull, I'm guessing that Siemens will try to offer their Viaggio Comfort coaches and paired up with a locomotive such the one found on Florida's Brightline.

http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mob...es/viaggio-comfort/pages/viaggio-comfort.aspx

I've been on those trains when visiting family in Austria. If we get anything even close to resembling those it'll be a shocking change for VIA. Those trains are spectacular.

If there are concerns about the direction of seats, perhaps we can take a page from Asia with the reversible seats:

Everyone seems hung up on seat direction. I'm not sure VIA cares. I think when they say bidirectional they intend to reflect the need to operate in both directions without having to turn the train around.

Sadly, no requirements for a bistro/cafe car. And given the fact that HFR is still the better part of a decade away from service (if ever), would have liked VIA to do something more for business customers. 5 hrs on a train can be productive. Pitch/meeting prep. Would have been nice to see a meeting space like this (skip 40s):

Or:

https://goo.gl/images/ojfzkB

If I had my way, Pininfarina would be designing the interior. Just check out what they did in Italy:

 

[kEiThZ]

GO is not pushing off electrification, get your facts right

Can you post the RFP for their electrification service installation?

Do you think they are studying Hydrail for fun?

At minimum, this is not something VIA can plan for.

 

[crs1026]

GO is not pushing off electrification, get your facts right

There is what's said, and there's the white space in between the words.

What is a fact is that GO no longer has to make a decision, nor will they influence the decision (overtly). The decision will be made by bidders who will put forward proposals, which may or may not include catenary. GO will select a bid, with cost being one consideration, but maybe not the only one.

This may be mainstream P3 territory, but it relieves GO (and the Province) from any responsibility to analyse, offer a solution, take a position in a political forum, or advocate towards or against electrification. That is a huge step backwards from Wynne's - and McGuinty's - clearly stated commitment to electrify. It absolves them of any political risk. It buries the cost where they can't be held accountable for it. their hands are clean, in a way that invites a certain biblical comparison.

And - to get this back on topic for this thread - it shifts the onus for funding any electrification from the Province to VIA. Instead of building catenary for GO that VIA might derive benefit from, now VIA has the onus to electrify and if they do the Province reaps a windfall should they make use of it.

This is so self-serving for Wynne and ML - anyone suggesting I'm in conspiracy theory territory must be extremely naive.

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

The P3 states the required service levels and that will be electrification of some sort, Hydrail would still be electrification just in another form.

We are in the wrong thread for that discussion. What is significant here is - until the hydrail announcement, VIA could rely on the likelihood of catenary in its Toronto approaches as a planning assumption for its own fleet decisions. Now, VIA does not know if catenary is available in Toronto or not. At minimum, that's a huge change in cost projection for VIA's own electrification BCA. (from potentially contributing to ML's project, to having to bear the full cost including the complicated work at Toronto Union for insulating the signalling, dealing with the trainshed, building the power supply infrastructure....without ML as a partner, and perhaps over the wishes of or without the win-win interest of the successful RER bidder....who will have control over much of the infrastructure downtown )

I don't have time to dig out the old press releases on this, but it's a significant change in Ontario's position, with very strong impact on VIA, at least with respect to HFR.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

Does any company make cabbage cars from new? Or was that a special effort for Amtrak to recycle old locos? Seems like a solid idea.

• Talgo Series 8 is a cab+HEP
• Siemens order for Caltrans is cab+passenger

Don't think anyone is making cab+baggage from scratch but unless VIA is getting out of baggage on the corridor completely I think it's worth looking at, especially given the number of grade crossings on VIA's network.

 

[cplchanb]

For a push-pull, I'm guessing that Siemens will try to offer their Viaggio Comfort coaches and paired up with a locomotive such the one found on Florida's Brightline.

http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mob...es/viaggio-comfort/pages/viaggio-comfort.aspx

Here are the PDF's with the coach layouts (ÖBB/ČD railjet)
http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mob...nger-coaches/viaggio-comfort-cdrailjet-en.pdf
http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mob...ions/passenger-coaches/viaggio-comfort-en.pdf
http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mob...enger-coaches/viaggio-comfort-for-oebb-en.pdf

ÖBB/ČD Railjet uses the Siemens' Taurus with the Viaggio Comfort.


If there are concerns about the direction of seats, perhaps we can take a page from Asia with the reversible seats:

the Taurus looks much better than the charger imo. The one they have on brightline looks like like the sun melted the nose into that droopy look.
I do hope that they also look into japan style swivel seats so they can just just spin the seats around at the end of the journey. that way everyone can be facing the direct of travel instead of
50/50.

 

[cplchanb]

• Talgo Series 8 is a cab+HEP
• Siemens order for Caltrans is cab+passenger

Don't think anyone is making cab+baggage from scratch but unless VIA is getting out of baggage on the corridor completely I think it's worth looking at, especially given the number of grade crossings on VIA's network.

my eyes needs bleach after seeing that talgo train....

 

[steveintoronto]

What is a fact is that GO no longer has to make a decision, nor will they influence the decision (overtly). The decision will be made by bidders who will put forward proposals, which may or may not include catenary. GO will select a bid, with cost being one consideration, but maybe not the only one.

This may be mainstream P3 territory, but it relieves GO (and the Province) from any responsibility to analyse, offer a solution, take a position in a political forum, or advocate towards or against electrification. That is a huge step backwards from Wynne's - and McGuinty's - clearly stated commitment to electrify. It absolves them of any political risk. It buries the cost where they can't be held accountable for it. their hands are clean, in a way that invites a certain biblical comparison.

And - to get this back on topic for this thread - it shifts the onus for funding any electrification from the Province to VIA. Instead of building catenary for GO that VIA might derive benefit from, now VIA has the onus to electrify and if they do the Province reaps a windfall should they make use of it.

I think this is an apt thread to discuss this, as well as the GO Electrification one, because the only lines that VIA would take initiative to electrify (and again, by the Private Initiative route) is the HFR being a complete and separate RoW from CN/CP.

During my forced absence at UT, this article was forwarded to me: (Needless to say, this was from before the Budget was presented, but still has info germain to how HFR might/would be funded)

Garneau says feds expected to make decision on $4-billion dedicated rail line this year
By MARCO VIGLIOTTI FEB. 26, 2018
However, Transport Minister Marc Garneau is only saying that a $21-billion high-speed line proposed by Ontario is an 'interesting project' that the government is 'examining alongside our municipal and provincial partners.'

The Trudeau government is offering little more than vague generalities on the future of a proposed $21-billion high-speed rail line for southern Ontario, though is expected to make a decision on what's seen as a rival plan to build a dedicated passenger track for the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal corridor sometime in 2018. Transport Minister Marc Garneau (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce-Westmount, Que.) told The Hill Times that an assessment of the estimated $4-billion dedicated rail line proposed by Via Rail is "well underway," with Ottawa expected to come [...]

http://www.hilltimes.com/2018/02/26...ion-via-rail-proposal-likely-come-year/135766

My apologies, that's all that I can now post, the link sent to me initially was from an 'insider' and granted the whole story. I'll see if I can get the whole story sent again.

Edit to Add: Story was discussed here: https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/80n2ac/garneau_says_feds_expected_to_make_decision_on/

The gist of my posting it is the "partner" facet. Just as Metrolinx are leaving it up their 'partners' now, so are the Feds via VIA. The present Fleet Renewal is obviously clearly 'in-house' for funding. HFR? I now highly doubt it. And the three year funding to investigate it is a rouse. HFR will be financed, built and stocked...*electrically* by a private concern with some Federal participation, not least a subsidy of sorts, a word that lends itself to dangerous political flak, even though it *saves* huge amounts in the long term.

@yrt+viva=1system many thanks for pics. I had limited time to research that earlier.

 

[brh]

How does the possible HSR that the Ontario government is mulling over as well as a Union Station rail deck, Go electrification & RER, Smart Track and any other Rail possibilities play out with VIA. Would they be better off waiting to see how things play out or is the fleet that depleted that they can't wait anymore?

 

[crs1026]

the Taurus looks much better than the charger imo. The one they have on brightline looks like like the sun melted the nose into that droopy look.

We could debate visuals ad infinitum, and everyone has their own tastes. Just don't forget that the end decision will be made based on a spreadsheet with cost, performance, and other things not related to visuals taking priority. At the end of the day, whatever gets bought will get some form of visual dressing up..... lipstick on a pig, perhaps, but the best that can be given the equipment selected. But it's a fun discussion.

I do hope that they also look into japan style swivel seats so they can just just spin the seats around at the end of the journey. that way everyone can be facing the direct of travel instead of
50/50.

When I'm travelling, I do some pretty extreme OCD things to not only get forward facing seats, but to try to get them with the optimum pillar placement so I get the most enjoyable view. Some of the foreign seat selection apps are pretty sophisticated - and damn dependable. But, at the end of the day, when I get stuck with a backward facing seat I just suck it up. I'm really not sure where the average potential customer is on this.

With the right facing seat placement, business travel is actually enhanced. Lots of work gets done when you are with coworkers, provided you have wifi, power at the seat, and provided your task isn't too sensitive for discussion in an open coach. So, some number of facing seats are a good thing.

- Paul

 

[kEiThZ]

The P3 states the required service levels and that will be electrification of some sort, Hydrail would still be electrification just in another form.

Sort of electrification site not help VIA. The Ontario Liberals have sort of screwed VIA here.