Unions!

[afransen]

^Shorter: there is some waste, therefore there should be more waste.

 

[Whoaccio]

If we came to the conclusion that income inequality is really such an issue in the private sector, the best way to go about dealing with it would simply be to raise taxes and redistribute to actual low income residents, not via some middle class union.

Anyways, the main payers of these executive salaries are large equity firms. I say this because, for all practicality, these people don't directly interact with anybody in the general public. If some guy makes a few million dollars in a month converting yen to god knows what or hedging random commodities, the general public doesn't directly pay his salary. Its also worth noting that, as high as the salaries are, they also have huge losses. AIG lost 18 BILLION on sour CDSs it had written and SocGen lost 9 BILLION on misused futures. If a firm has a few billion under management, and that isn't even big, they can't afford to loose talent to their competitors.

 

[Mr.Colley]

Competition in the marketplace is limited -- just because I know I'm worth more doesn't mean anyone will pay me more because that cuts into their profit margins and their personal salaries (the problem is compounded many times over in corporate environments). Anyway, the pay scale at the top levels has risen many times that of inflation in the last 20-30 years, but same is not true for any other segment.

As for whether I would be complaining whether I was at the top? Well, if you were one of the garbage strikers would you be complaining that you get 18 bankable sick days a day though most people don't?

I'm all for hard work and all that jazz, but we're already an overworked society, with some of the world's shortest vacation time in the developed world. It doesn't make for a good society.

Ok first off, I never said the private sector was perfect or that the pay was any better or worse. But if you don't like a portion of your earnings going to management then don't work for them simple as that. See that's the beauty of the system. You can work for yourself. Where as if you were in a Union 90% of the time management gets a huge cut anyways. What CUPE is doing is wrong on so many levels, that's what I was trying to get at. This is a strong arm tactic of the Union.
And no I wouldn't be complaining would you? City workers under the Union enjoy amazing benefits and suburb pay. And now they are asking for more, when the rest of us who are working to make it by, general tax payers, are hurting. This is all I am trying to point out.

 

[Mr.Colley]

"
Until the further ups once and for all show us that they are truly hurting just as much as the little pion worker, then shut up already about unions being a drain and the private sector being the pinnacle of how things should be done in regards to pay and concessions.

I've seen too many jobs created for family members in companies, seen jobs created out of nowhere for someone a manager was friends with when they were screaming at the time that profits were down. On too many occasions did I see this happen.

Bullshit...........

The private sector is rife with this sort of practice and the perks just as much as the public sector and unions are.

And to those that think that since it's no longer the 30's and workers aren't being taken of, exploited, abused and strongarmed into nasty situations and thus unions no longer serve a puropse and function?

I don't know what world you're working in but my long history with working in the private sector, where I saw this unfold on too many occasions and myself been a victem of abuse belies this nonsense that people aren't treated like shit in work places. Maybe not all workplaces but don't kid yourself. It happens.

I've got friends who have degrees, that work in the private sector and public sector and constantly tell of the sheer collective stupidity and walking on people's rights by management. This crap is still happening out there on a large scale.

People just have their blinders on.......

First of no where did I say that The private sector was the Pinnacle of how things should be done. I will agree that the system is flawed but no where near to the extent that the Unions are now. They have lost touch with how the times are going.

And yes abuse still happens, but if you were so inclined you have many avenues of which you can deal with it. There are labor boards (for those that are not in a Union), And if your being physically or verbally abused then go to the authorities. The owership of this is on your own head. You don't like it then leave. The same
"crap" as you say runs rampent in the Unions too. You want to talk about abuse and strong arm tatics, I'll tell you a little story and you can look it up too, It happened here in Windsor no less then a month ago. A union member, who didn't like the way something went took a baseball bat to another union members head, I don't know if the man is out of the coma yet or if he died. But this sort of thing happens more then you would know.

You say people have their blinders on? Why don't you stop wallowing in your self pity and do something about it. You are a grown adult. No one is telling you who to work for. You don't like the way something is, then change it instead of sitting here and blaming everyone else but yourself.

Is the private sector perfect? No, no chance in hell. Has it improved. Yes, and there is a potential for more growth.
Not every job is perfect. But if you don't like where you are. Then it is on your head to make your situation better. Your not going to get things handed to you. Some people do. Good for them. If your not one of them then suck it up and do something about it. Nothing is stopping you from going to school, becoming a CEO in some company, or starting your own company. So quit whining about it.

 

[salvius]

Ok first off, I never said the private sector was perfect or that the pay was any better or worse. But if you don't like a portion of your earnings going to management then don't work for them simple as that. See that's the beauty of the system.

No, it's not as simple as that because there can never be a situation where what you produce is what you get paid in the private sector; in such an arrangement, the business is done for.

You can work for yourself. Where as if you were in a Union 90% of the time management gets a huge cut anyways.

I can? That requires capital I obviously don't have (and it's easier for my profession than many others!). Being self-employed cannot be a reality for a large chunk of people. And, I'm sure the management still gets large salaries but:

a) in the public sector, management salaries are much lower
b) in the private sector, the workers tend to be better paid and have far more benefits

Besides, it seems to me you are defending the private sector management salaries based on the idea that I don't have to work for them if I don't like it. Mr. Colley, nobody is forcing your hand to work in a unionized workplace if you don't like it.

hat CUPE is doing is wrong on so many levels, that's what I was trying to get at. This is a strong arm tactic of the Union.
And no I wouldn't be complaining would you? City workers under the Union enjoy amazing benefits and suburb pay. And now they are asking for more, when the rest of us who are working to make it by, general tax payers, are hurting. This is all I am trying to point out.

Since negotiations are behind closed doors, how would you know they're asking for more? Certainly, what's in the papers suggests that they're asking to retain the benefits they had under the previous contract. And who says they get superb pay? I get paid more than most of these strikers, and I'm not exactly enjoying a jet set lifestyle; this is an expensive city to live in.

 

[Paleo]

There's plenty of abusive practices that happen in private businesses.

A popular one that I have seen is having employees clock-in and clock-out on a computerized application on their workstation but requiring them to do preparation before hand and cleanup after wards. Nice way to cheat your employees and get some free labour out of them. (deviating from the plan means you're fired)

What are you going to do when employers in industry A get together and decide to do something that you don't like--say pre-employment drug tests. (or pick any random thing that might not be legal for them to do, or might be in a legal grey area). Not work in that industry?

I'm not saying that unions are the answer for these particular circumstances but abuses like this happen all the time. Pretending that the days of ruthless employers exploiting their employees are long gone is putting your head into the sand.

 

[Mr.Colley]

Salvius- No, I'm not working for a union and I never said I was being forced to. I have in the past so I can speak as to their practices. Not all negotions are behind closed doors sir. I am from Windsor. And what they have demanded has been stated already. I never said that working for yourself was easy, not did I say it didn't take risk. But there have been many who have done so. and made millions from nothing. And yes not everyone can be self employed, that is a reality. But no one is stopping you from trying. That's the thing that gets me. people will cry about something, but when push comes to shove they sit in their own little cubicle doing the same forms day in and day out. (just using that as an example, don't bit my head off for it,) I myself have worked for a Union. It wasn't what i wanted. I work for a company now, And no I'm not management. But I also work for myself on the side, trying to launch my own buissness. So when I speak, its from personal experience. I may not be the smartest person out there but one thing I'm not is Ignorant enough to speak when silence is better suited.

 

[Mr.Colley]

I'm not saying that unions are the answer for these particular circumstances but abuses like this happen all the time. Pretending that the days of ruthless employers exploiting their employees are long gone is putting your head into the sand.

I never said that they were gone. I said we were more educated. There's a difference. What people are doing is mistaking what I have said. And reading into it what they want to hear. Maybe that's my fault for not being clear.
As I have said. I agree and will be the first to say that they're practices that arn't right in both sectors. but... and i say this... You have options. Your company wants to do a pre-employment drug test? if you have nothing to hide then why are you worried about it. BTW, Drugs are illegal. So if a company wants to test. Then in my books go ahead. But that's besides the point. The company wants to test and you don't like it. Take it up with the government. Trust me. The government will love to fine a company that is blatantly breaking the law. Is there exploitation, yes, but its on both sides of the fence. You just have more options in the public sector on how to deal with it. I've been on both sides. And dealt with a whole bunch of B.S. on both ends.

 

[tkip]

Workplace polictics....

Being educated doesn't eliminate what happens in the workforce or change people's behaviour and how they run companies.

It might give you more choice in where to go but odds are that the next company you run to has corruption and that the individuals running said company are no different than the ones you left behind.

As I mentioned earlier, I have several friends with degrees working in various sectors within both the private and public sectors and I always get the latest updates on the crap they have to put up from their bosses especially in the private sector.

Reason? There is simply less protection for workers in the private sector. Say what you will about unions but they provide a layer of protection and guidelines on how the workers are treated.

Doesn't always get followed and it can be abused but once again, the private sector is rife with abuse and having an education doesn't exclude one from this treatment or make the problem go away.

If it did then my university educated friends would never have stories to tell me save for the stupidity they face all the time which sadly shows that getting a university education doesn't make one smarter or that you were smart to begin with. Degrees are too easy to get now as it is.

You may think that some of the perks and benefits the union gets are unfair and stupid and sometimes, they are but you have remember one important fact in all this. These were agreed upon in negotiations between the employer and the union. The union didn't force this unto the employer. They agreed to them in return for something else.

I have friends working behind the scenes and employers have to agree to the terms before signing off on any collective agreement. And once again, if unions bother you then just avoid working in an unionized enviroment.

 

[Mr.Colley]

Tkip, You bring up some valid points but are still missing what I am really getting at. Being smarter doesn't stop one from doing stupid things. But the awareness of these things is what I was driving at.

And Unions have forced things, many of them. Look at the strike were in for example. This is a strong arm tactic.

I'm no advocate either way. I don't work for a Union any more. And That's just where I am now. I don't see many unions making it another 5 years. But that's just me. We'll see what happens in the time to come.

 

[kEiThZ]

It's easy to take pot shots at the private sector if you ignore key differences....the main one being that badly run companies go under. Sure, there's a lot of poor practices in the private sector (and I have seen my fair share in the public sector too) but sooner or later those bad habits catch up with their purveyors. When UAW/CAW pushed too hard with the auto manufacturers and the automakers squandered billions in profits on dividends, their companies led them to bankruptcy.

There is no such bar on the public sector keeping labour costs in check. Even now, the strikers have not uttered a single word demonstrating that they understand that their settlement will lead to higher taxes. They frame this stuff as a 'matter of fairness' when that cost their employer, the city (and in turn the taxpayers), hundreds of millions of dollars. The city is not entirely blameless here. They caved to the other unions. And the councillors voted themselves a pay raise. None of it is excusable. In the end the taxpayer suffers...and the rising taxes will slowly damage the economic health of the city by driving away businesses and residents.

 

[Eug]

I find this whole thing a farce. Some have been saying for years that this overspending is unsustainable, yet those in power caved to the unions in the interest in fairness, and padded some of their own pockets too.

Now all of a sudden, these same people are champions of fiscal responsibility.

I almost feel sorry for the current group on strike. Yeah, some of their demands are ludicrous, but I wouldn't have been surprised if they would have gotten them in a new contract had it been negotiated 10 months ago.

I don't really blame the unions per se. (Well, I do to an extent, but...) I mainly blame those who have no willingness at all to negotiate truly on behalf of the taxpayer until it's too late.

 

[cdr108]

Regarding the kid waiting for 20 minutes for an ambulance to show?

Did it even occur to people that there were probably a large amount of calls already ahead of this one and that ambulances were tied up responding to calls elsewhere?

Something to consider.

well isn't that ALWAYS the case ?!?!?

i just hope there isn't a situation where union members are in dire need of ambulance services ... 'sorry, ambulances were tied up responding to calls elsewhere.'

 

[salvius]

Salvius- No, I'm not working for a union and I never said I was being forced to. I have in the past so I can speak as to their practices. Not all negotions are behind closed doors sir. I am from Windsor. And what they have demanded has been stated already. I never said that working for yourself was easy, not did I say it didn't take risk. But there have been many who have done so. and made millions from nothing. And yes not everyone can be self employed, that is a reality. But no one is stopping you from trying. That's the thing that gets me. people will cry about something, but when push comes to shove they sit in their own little cubicle doing the same forms day in and day out. (just using that as an example, don't bit my head off for it,)

I'm not going to bite your head out of it, but your 'work for yourself' solution is completely inapplicable to many/most occupational sectors. Heck, though my profession is amenable to consultant work, it's an impossible proposition for a good chunk of one's career.

Work hard and you can make millions is the standard bull that always ignores the many just as capable and just as smart and hard-working individuals who have not gone from rags to riches. This kind of limited extrapolation into a generalization is a rather basic error.

 

[Mr.Colley]

No it doesnt work for everyone. Never said it did. But you won't know unless you try. Not everyone is up for that kind of thing. And i understand that. But there are so many sides to this and people are not looking at even half of them. Just out of curiousity what do you do for a living Salvius?