Unions!

[Eug]

I have read before that in some jurisdictions cities have allowed union locals to bid on work alongside the public sector and that they have won out quite often. Though, one could argue that once you are bidding for work, the double monopoly is broken and the unions demands are likely to be kept in check.

If unions truly provide more productivity they should have no problem going head to head with the private sector. I think Miller should implement this solution in Toronto.

I agree completely.

A well run and reasonable union is something to be celebrated. If they can win the contracts with superior service and/or lower cost then that's great.

 

[afransen]

I agree completely.

A well run and reasonable union is something to be celebrated. If they can win the contracts with superior service and/or lower cost then that's great.

I think it would be hard for anyone to object to that. Now if only we could see that regularly.

 

[mangasparky]

I have read before that in some jurisdictions cities have allowed union locals to bid on work alongside the public sector and that they have won out quite often.

This happens more than regularly in Toronto with trade unions. Some industries will ONLY award contracts to union contractors. This is because of high quality of work, and highly trained workers.

Though I have been out argued by very well spoken individuals on this board, my stance will not change. Unions have helped my family in years past and helped shift some wealth across to my hard working parents. For that I am extremely greatful.

 

[afransen]

^Hey, no one said that unions aren't very effective at enriching some people. They just tend to make us all poorer, in aggregate.

 

[kEiThZ]

This happens more than regularly in Toronto with trade unions. Some industries will ONLY award contracts to union contractors. This is because of high quality of work, and highly trained workers.

Nobody here said that they could not do good quality work. When it comes to things like construction and the trades, I'd agree that unionized labour provides top notch work. However, it's debatable whether unionized trash collectors would provide sufficient value added compared to non-unionized staff to make the cost differential worthwhile.

Though I have been out argued by very well spoken individuals on this board, my stance will not change. Unions have helped my family in years past and helped shift some wealth across to my hard working parents. For that I am extremely greatful.

Key word there is your family. Since you are a private sector union member, I can sort of agree that the union does help in ensuring that you are provided with good working conditions and a fare wage. Just be careful not to take it as far as GM, Air Canada, Chrysler, etc. who are all now feeling the after-effects of unions constantly sticking it to the man - as in their employer.

As Afransen pointed out, unions, particularly in the public sector, hold the public hostage and seek exorbitant wages on the backs of tax payers who often make less than they do. There is no way I am willing to support wage increases for people who make more than most in this city, in the midst of a recession, from a city government which is also broke. If the City of Toronto were GM, that kind of demand could well have resulted in the company going bankrupt and breaking up. Imagine if GM workers went on strike right now for higher wages and to retain their fat pensions and medical benefits. How is CUPE's behaviour any worse? And to do it right before a major civic event and right when kids are finishing school is despicable. I hope Miller takes anyway more than their bankable sick days for this.

 

[cdr108]

Nobody here said that they could not do good quality work. When it comes to things like construction and the trades, I'd agree that unionized labour provides top notch work. However, it's debatable whether unionized trash collectors would provide sufficient value added compared to non-unionized staff to make the cost differential worthwhile.



Key word there is your family. Since you are a private sector union member, I can sort of agree that the union does help in ensuring that you are provided with good working conditions and a fare wage. Just be careful not to take it as far as GM, Air Canada, Chrysler, etc. who are all now feeling the after-effects of unions constantly sticking it to the man - as in their employer.

As Afransen pointed out, unions, particularly in the private sector, hold the public hostage and seek exorbitant wages on the backs of tax payers who often make less than they do. There is no way I am willing to support wage increases for people who make more than most in this city, in the midst of a recession, from a city government which is also broke. If the City of Toronto were GM, that kind of demand could well have resulted in the company going bankrupt and breaking up. Imagine if GM workers went on strike right now for higher wages and to retain their fat pensions and medical benefits. How is CUPE's behaviour any worse? And to do it right before a major civic event and right when kids are finishing school is despicable. I hope Miller takes anyway more than their bankable sick days for this.

I think you meant the public sector ... and I agree with you.
The public sector is very inefficient and wasteful ... it gets compounded with a union mandate for things like non-skilled workers vs. trades.

If anything, unions should be making strides into the private sector where there's more need for workers protection than those employeed by the gov't.

On another note, last night, I came across an accident where a kid (13 years old) fell off his bike. He laying on the road and wasn't moving. It took 20 minutes for an ambulance to arrive after 4 of us bystanders called 911 every 5 minutes. Luckily, I think the kid just broke his arm and was in too much pain and shock to move.

This could have been a fatal situation if the injuries were more severe, but no one could do anything and we were told by 911 not to move the person. How ridiculous that the strike, which includes paramedics, should result in such a delay ... anything more than 5 minutes is unacceptable IMO.bb

Hell, the police didn't even come out ... and they are less than 2 minutes away.

 

[tkip]

Uh...................

Regarding the kid waiting for 20 minutes for an ambulance to show?

Did it even occur to people that there were probably a large amount of calls already ahead of this one and that ambulances were tied up responding to calls elsewhere?

Something to consider.

 

[Dilla]

Did it even occur to people that there were probably a large amount of calls already ahead of this one and that ambulances were tied up responding to calls elsewhere?

Well, one would assume that's the case, of course.

However, to try and pretend the strike isn't effecting ambulance wait times would be disingenuous.

fewer ambulances = longer waits. It's not rocket surgery.

 

[Mr.Colley]

I'm going to say this, and if I rile any ones feathers I apoligise but this stands to be said. Unions have, In the past, had their place. This is not so anymore. We are not in the 30's and 40's where if you didn't belong to a Union you were nothing. I would like to think we were more educated now.
Unions are bleeding us all out. I say this with some authority. I live and work in Windsor Ontario. Where you can't do or say anything without having some union involvement. The Unions are everywhere in this city from city workers, to call centers. CUPE Is trying to gain more rights and benefits then they should. Times have changed. Money is tight for everyone. And because our city, whom I stand behind completely, didn't give into CUPE's demands, they are on strike.
We haven't had garbage pickup in almost 3 months. But were still going. The Union, CUPE, is a dying entity. I believe they know this too, which is why they have resorted to such desperate measures. We've seen the collapse of a few Unions here, there are more to come.

 

[salvius]

I'm going to say this, and if I rile any ones feathers I apoligise but this stands to be said. Unions have, In the past, had their place. This is not so anymore. We are not in the 30's and 40's where if you didn't belong to a Union you were nothing. I would like to think we were more educated now.
Unions are bleeding us all out. I say this with some authority. I live and work in Windsor Ontario. Where you can't do or say anything without having some union involvement. The Unions are everywhere in this city from city workers, to call centers. CUPE Is trying to gain more rights and benefits then they should. Times have changed. Money is tight for everyone.

I'll buy that line when I see some greater pay equity in the private sector where senior management rakes in ludicrous salaries and bonuses. Sorry, I just don't buy they are worth that much. So, money is not tight for everyone, just for chump wage slaves (me being one of them).

 

[Mr.Colley]

I'll give you that one. But would you be complaining if you were in their position? At the end of the day, you work hard you get paid. The better you are at what you do the better off you will be. Does that make things fair? No. There's always going to be people that get where they are by daddy's money. Or by a friend or family member. The Big Three were huge for that here. But I still say Unions are a dying breed, and they should be let to die. They do more harm than good these days. Yes the private sector has its draw backs, but its a free system. You don't want to see them being paid that money then don't work for them. But don't tell me you would be the one complaining if you were raking in the money from a management position. If you want that position then go get it. Work your butt off. Some people get handed things, others work for them. If you weren't lucky enough to be handed it, then do the hard work. There's more satisfaction in it anyways.

 

[salvius]

I'll give you that one. But would you be complaining if you were in their position? At the end of the day, you work hard you get paid. The better you are at what you do the better off you will be.

I am very good at what I do, I work hard, and I get paid, but the partners will still shave off a large chunk of what I make for them without them lifting a finger. I mean, are we honestly arguing the pay is purely correlative with merit in the private sector? Much of it is about marketing oneself, and frankly, trying to get into the old boys club, things that have nothing to do with productive output and which I find repulsive.

Yes the private sector has its draw backs, but its a free system. You don't want to see them being paid that money then don't work for them. But don't tell me you would be the one complaining if you were raking in the money from a management position. If you want that position then go get it. Work your butt off.

Competition in the marketplace is limited -- just because I know I'm worth more doesn't mean anyone will pay me more because that cuts into their profit margins and their personal salaries (the problem is compounded many times over in corporate environments). Anyway, the pay scale at the top levels has risen many times that of inflation in the last 20-30 years, but same is not true for any other segment.

As for whether I would be complaining whether I was at the top? Well, if you were one of the garbage strikers would you be complaining that you get 18 bankable sick days a day though most people don't?

Some people get handed things, others work for them. If you weren't lucky enough to be handed it, then do the hard work. There's more satisfaction in it anyways.

I'm all for hard work and all that jazz, but we're already an overworked society, with some of the world's shortest vacation time in the developed world. It doesn't make for a good society.

 

[kEiThZ]

I'll buy that line when I see some greater pay equity in the private sector where senior management rakes in ludicrous salaries and bonuses. Sorry, I just don't buy they are worth that much. So, money is not tight for everyone, just for chump wage slaves (me being one of them).

However, this is not about the private sector. While, I do think that city councillors are overpaid, the roughly 100k a year they pull in does not compare to a CEO with stock options and does not justify the city unions' behaviour. For the public sector money is tight and these demands are not justifiable at all. City unions are seeking to maintain their exorbitant standards of living on the backs of worn out and increasingly unemployed taxpayers. Indeed, these union workers are starting to look more and more like those overpaid CEOs who feel entitled to their perks regardless of the state of the company they are running.

 

[salvius]

However, this is not about the private sector. While, I do think that city councillors are overpaid, the roughly 100k a year they pull in does not compare to a CEO with stock options and does not justify the city unions' behaviour. .

True. It was merely a comment on this idea that 'money's tight for everyone.' No, not everyone.

 

[tkip]

Yes..........

"I'll buy that line when I see some greater pay equity in the private sector where senior management rakes in ludicrous salaries and bonuses. Sorry, I just don't buy they are worth that much. So, money is not tight for everyone, just for chump wage slaves (me being one of them)."

I think this statement realistically sums up the so-called crisis and recession we're being told is unfolding. I don't know one person that's lost their job or been laid off but I do think that the current climate is giving companies and management the perfect excuse to make cuts and layoffs.

I've been told this by guys I meet who work in the private sector and hear that dispite tough economic times and laying off workers, too many management types are still enjoying hefty bonuses and pay.

Until the further ups once and for all show us that they are truly hurting just as much as the little pion worker, then shut up already about unions being a drain and the private sector being the pinnacle of how things should be done in regards to pay and concessions.

I've seen too many jobs created for family members in companies, seen jobs created out of nowhere for someone a manager was friends with when they were screaming at the time that profits were down. On too many occasions did I see this happen.

Bullshit...........

The private sector is rife with this sort of practice and the perks just as much as the public sector and unions are.

And to those that think that since it's no longer the 30's and workers aren't being taken of, exploited, abused and strongarmed into nasty situations and thus unions no longer serve a puropse and function?

I don't know what world you're working in but my long history with working in the private sector, where I saw this unfold on too many occasions and myself been a victem of abuse belies this nonsense that people aren't treated like shit in work places. Maybe not all workplaces but don't kid yourself. It happens.

I've got friends who have degrees, that work in the private sector and public sector and constantly tell of the sheer collective stupidity and walking on people's rights by management. This crap is still happening out there on a large scale.

People just have their blinders on.......