Turks and Caicos Islands to join Canada?

[AGTO]

It was a blow to close down the small station that used to be there in Bermuda.

Bermuda's closer to Nova Scotia then the carribean.

how about if some Canadian universities set up satellite campuses there.

You can graduate from Queens University without ever leaving Bermuda.

 

[kEiThZ]

Bermuda's closer to Nova Scotia then the carribean.

I don't dispute that. But the primarily role of that station was to accomodate a CF presence in the Carribean. It's secondary role was to support naval ops in the Atlantic. In the post-Cold War era the need for a presence in the Atlantic has diminished. The need for ready access to the Caribbean has not.

 

[AGTO]

But the primarily role of that station was to accomodate a CF presence in the Carribean.

It's no where near the carribean. it was set up as a listening post during WW2, triangulating radio transmissions with Argus tower and Nova Scotia.

In the post-Cold War era the need for a presence in the Atlantic has diminished. The need for ready access to the Caribbean has not.

Considering Bermuda as a gateway to the Carribean is like considering Baffin Island as a gateway to the adriatic sea.

 

[Kitsune]

Perhaps Canada could do to T&C, what US did to Guam. Make it the fourth territory, albeit one with more autonomy: its own immigration rules (so that a foreigner who can enter T&C cannot necessarily enter Canada proper), and its own currency (continues the USD). But still, the only benefit a Canadian would see in choosing T&C over Florida is that there will be no visas to worry about. An given that a retirement home in Fort Meyers is a fixed investment, I doubt many people will actually move.

Fun to think about, though.

What Visa's? Work visa's? Does that really make a difference? Many big banks will put people in the Caribbean without valid work visa's, I've seen it quite a few times. And as for travel visa's, how many Caribbean nations require one? The few I know of only require a passport.

 

[kEiThZ]

It's no where near the carribean. it was set up as a listening post during WW2, triangulating radio transmissions with Argus tower and Nova Scotia.

I just had lunch with someone who was stationed there yesterday. The listening post was one of many functions of that station. They also had a few traffic techs there to facilitate air movements through Bermuda (to the Caribbean and South America as required)....and it was use as a destination for air crew long range trainers.

Considering Bermuda as a gateway to the Carribean is like considering Baffin Island as a gateway to the adriatic sea.

I wasn't referring to Bermuda. I was suggesting that TnC could act as a hub for our Caribbean activities should it ever join Canada. Indeed, since it's closer to the Carribean it would be the best facility in the region we've ever had. It would fit in with the new game plan of pre-positioning. We're starting to build hubs in Asia, Africa and the Middle East. The Carribean would be a logical next step. And if it happens to be on a Canadian island, that's even better.

 

[toraerach]

Perhaps Canada could do to T&C, what US did to Guam. Make it the fourth territory, albeit one with more autonomy: its own immigration rules (so that a foreigner who can enter T&C cannot necessarily enter Canada proper), and its own currency (continues the USD). But still, the only benefit a Canadian would see in choosing T&C over Florida is that there will be no visas to worry about. An given that a retirement home in Fort Meyers is a fixed investment, I doubt many people will actually move.

Fun to think about, though.

The problem is that if you give the Turks and Caicos that kind of autonomy, Quebec will turn around and say "Why not us too?"

Do the people of the Turks and Caicos actually want to join Canada?

 

[urbanfan89]

The problem is that if you give the Turks and Caicos that kind of autonomy, Quebec will turn around and say "Why not us too?"

Do the people of the Turks and Caicos actually want to join Canada?

Citizens of some Asian countries can enter Guam without visa, but need a visa to enter the US proper. I suggest that letting some foreigners enter T&C visa-free who otherwise need a visa to enter mainland Canada would attract more tourists. Quebec is not going to start controlling its borders with the rest of Canada.

The Caribbean, for better or worse, runs on the USD. Therefore T&C should also continue to run on the USD. I don't see Quebec forming its own currency any time soon.

T&C is a tax haven, and if joining Canada means shutting down the offshore banks, it will become a money hole of federal subsidies. Therefore it should be allowed to continue its financial activities, subject to more transparency. I don't see Quebec becoming a tax haven any time soon.

Besides, this point doesn't exist with other countries. There are no calls for autonomy for Scotland simply because Her Majesty's Overseas Territories (or whatever they're called) have more autonomy (this is for a different reason). You don't see Texas calling for control over its borders because Puerto Rico is more autonomous.

The reality is that T&C just cannot be treated the same way as Port Elgin is.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Heh, I'm a bit late on this discussion, but I've always supported the T&C joining Canada. Not for Canada to have an increased presence in the Caribbean, but just because of the growth it would give to the islands. If it operated as a part of Canada, it would see a huge increase in tourists. Once tourist locations get established, more people from around the world will start going there for their vacation. Also, giving it Canadian healthcare and security will likely make it a destination for immigrants throughout the Caribbean seeking a better life. It could experience enormous growth by being a part of Canada.

I'm pretty sure this is related, but a couple weeks ago I started a little pet project, looking into why North America is the way it is. Why are Canada and the US so huge, without any other countries except Mexico? I've been delving into history, and it's fascinating to see and try to figure out what could have happened, and what effects changes would have today. I think I might post my findings here after I've done some more research.

 

[kEiThZ]

The Caribbean, for better or worse, runs on the USD. Therefore T&C should also continue to run on the USD.

It's debatable. There's a good argument to be made that if the place was Canadian, that the influx of Canadian tourists could compensate for the 170 000 tourists the US sends their way. But you are right, that if it becomes a condition of their ascension into confederation then it's definitely worth creating a third category of governance beyond the province and territory today.

T&C is a tax haven, and if joining Canada means shutting down the offshore banks, it will become a money hole of federal subsidies. Therefore it should be allowed to continue its financial activities, subject to more transparency.

The tax haven thing is becoming harder and harder these days now that the US views off-shore tax havens as nearly on par with terrorism (they dedicate significant intelligence, legal and law enforcement resources to do as much damage to these places as possible). The EU is crackdown as well. The recent dust-up between Germany and Switzerland is merely a sign of what's to come. That being said, given that quite a few of those seeking shelter in TnC happen to be Canadian, it might not be such a bad thing to shut it down. And any bankers who do happen to lose their jobs could now easily move to Toronto and take up jobs in our financial sector.

As for the subsidies argument....with a population of 36 000, how much damage can they do? Their entire GDP is less than the TTC's operating budget alone. I am willing to bet that the sheer savings from Canadian tourist dollars to Florida being diverted to TnC would make up for whatever we have to spend to keep and maintain this territory.

 

[afransen]

^Exactly. The scales involved make it really quite easy for Canada to dump a lot of resources into TnC without any noticeable effect on federal expenses. Even if we plow billions into infrastructure and social services, we could probably recoup it in recaptured tax revenue from vacationers.

 

[urbanfan89]

It's debatable. There's a good argument to be made that if the place was Canadian, that the influx of Canadian tourists could compensate for the 170 000 tourists the US sends their way. But you are right, that if it becomes a condition of their ascension into confederation then it's definitely worth creating a third category of governance beyond the province and territory today.

I'm not sure there will be a big influx of Canadians. All the snowbirds who own homes in Fort Meyers and Orlando won't sell up and move just because a tiny island nearby is now flying the maple leaf. All the families who spend a week treating their kids to Mickey Mouse won't decide to see the Turks and Caicos just because it's now Canadian. If those islands became Canadian I wouldn't want to spend thousands just to see the Maple Leaf flying above palm trees on a beach.

The tax haven thing is becoming harder and harder these days now that the US views off-shore tax havens as nearly on par with terrorism (they dedicate significant intelligence, legal and law enforcement resources to do as much damage to these places as possible). The EU is crackdown as well. The recent dust-up between Germany and Switzerland is merely a sign of what's to come. That being said, given that quite a few of those seeking shelter in TnC happen to be Canadian, it might not be such a bad thing to shut it down. And any bankers who do happen to lose their jobs could now easily move to Toronto and take up jobs in our financial sector.

For better or worse, there will always be some no-name place where the rich can hide their cash. If the world will always have tax havens, why not have them in places with a clean reputation? Maybe exempt it from federal income taxes, declare complete free trade, and impose a high sales tax. I don't mind right-wing activists voluntarily exiling themselves from the Mainland...

By the way, it's unlikely Toronto can take in all the unemployed offshore bankers. Bay Street is far too conservative and small for them.

As for the subsidies argument....with a population of 36 000, how much damage can they do? Their entire GDP is less than the TTC's operating budget alone. I am willing to bet that the sheer savings from Canadian tourist dollars to Florida being diverted to TnC would make up for whatever we have to spend to keep and maintain this territory.

Puerto Rico is dependent on subsidies from Washington. Guadeloupe is dependent on subsidies from Paris. Ditto for the British non-tax haven islands. So it's entirely possible that T&C will become a net drain on Ottawa's coffers. A small one, but I doubt more than a fraction of the snowbirds who head to Florida each winter will change their plans.

 

[afransen]

Snowbirds can only go to Florida for six months a year. They could live permanently in TnC.

 

[MisterF]

Imagine having a destination in the Caribbean where every Canadian could travel without a passport. That would be the end of Florida.

I don't think Florida would be hurt too much. 1.6 million Canadians go to Florida every year. That’s over six times the number of people that go to T&C, from all countries. Such a small country can only take so many tourists. Demand would probably go up but so would prices. I could see T&C becoming the premium tropical vacation spot for Canadians, with the average person getting priced out.

By the way, it's unlikely Toronto can take in all the unemployed offshore bankers. Bay Street is far too conservative and small for them.

Too small? How many bankers could there possibly be out of a population of 36,000? Bay St would barely notice.

 

[Jonny5]

Snowbirds can only go to Florida for six months a year. They could live permanently in TnC.

That's an important point. There are advantages to maintaining Canadian residency year round.

The currency issue is a red herring. Border cities and entire countries the world over accept multiple currencies from tourists and deal with the conversions themselves. When visiting Buenos Aires I once used US and Argentine money mixed together for the same purchase. No one cared. It was a trivial matter they had fully adapted to with no effort. Americans can visit TCI and never touch a loonie for their entire visit.

As for the offshore-banking jobs, it should be noted that many of the players in TCI and across the Caribbean are divisions of Canadian banks already! The people making the big money don't actually work there though. They are here, or in New York or London.

 

[detroitbootybass]

Do the people of the Turks and Caicos actually want to join Canada?

This is the single most important question... and one that nobody here (at least to my knowledge) can accurately answer.