TTC surface stop spacing

[Electrify]

One stop I could see keeping is York, which ironically has already been cut. Ideally there would be an island platform between York and Bay, but that is unlikely to happen. Between York and Bay is one of the densest urban districts in the country, and the streetcar is now going to skip over it.

The only reason I can see for keeping Victoria is because it keeps Yonge from overcrowding. If this is the case, its existence is simply to show that even streetcars cannot keep up with the surface demand, and that we need a grade separated solution through this corridor.

 

[TFC]

For local routes it's best to keep stops near side as opposed to far side.

It's best to keep stops alternating between near side and far side (von Stein's rule). This helps maintain transit scheduling through light sequencing. If all stops were near side for local routes, there's a good chance that the route won't maintain its schedule due to traffic signals/other factors.

I seriously hope that someone tells Pam McConnell that she shouldn't dismiss the good people at the TTC, who by no means are trying to reduce service in her ward.

 

[ksun]

Steve Munro also seems to be for keeping the Victoria St stops as well.

LOL. Does that mean every hospital in Toronto is within 90 meters from a transit stop? How many of St Mike's patients have trouble walking 90 meters (or 1 minute)?

Plus, what about those miserable people who have to take the subway to St Mike's hospital? They have to exit the subway from underground, walk to the exit, come all the way to the ground floor, and walk again to Queen/Victoria!

This "what about the hospital patients" logic is near moronic.

so much whining about everything. I am speechless that they can't do any teeny tiny thing to improve TTC.

 

[W. K. Lis]

LOL. Does that mean every hospital in Toronto is within 90 meters from a transit stop? How many of St Mike's patients have trouble walking 90 meters (or 1 minute)?

Plus, what about those miserable people who have to take the subway to St Mike's hospital? They have to exit the subway from underground, walk to the exit, come all the way to the ground floor, and walk again to Queen/Victoria!

This "what about the hospital patients" logic is near moronic.

so much whining about everything. I am speechless that they can't do any teeny tiny thing to improve TTC.

Would patients be trapped on the Queen Subway Station platform whenever the escalators or elevators are out-of-service?

 

[innsertnamehere]

^Weeltrans.

 

[DSC]

Though I can see many reasons to eliminate the westbound streetcar stop at Victoria, one reason to keep it is because it has a proper shelter and the TTC seems unable to install one at Yonge (underground stuff??).

Similarly the northbound 75 bus stop at Lower Sherbourne and Front has a proper shelter while the alternative (at King, which has been removed due to construction) had only one of the quite useless ones with no sides because the sidewalk there was (and will be) too narrow.

Abandoning stops is complicated and should not simply be a matter of measuring distances from other stops.

 

[drum118]

One can remove the westbound Yonge stop and replace it with Victoria as it has a shelter there now, but that corner is going to disappear starting in 2016 with the next phase of St Mike get built there.

One recommendation for TTC to do, is redo all the routes from a fresh start and put stops in at all connecting lines first; highest ridership points next; follow by point of important using the 300-400m spacing. One has to keep in mind the streets are stagger on both sides of routes to the point you may have to put in mid-block stops with new crosswalks.

How the crow fly is one thing, the walking distance off the route could be far greater than the new spacing. This will require more time walking to/from on cold days we have these days and the spacing needs to be adjusted to meet the conditions on a stop by stop base.

Stops at York and Victoria need to go on all routes. The Elizabeth stops need to go as well for both Dundas and College.

Its about 200m+ to my hospital stop.

 

[Edward]

A large percentage of the people getting off at Victoria are going to Queen Station. Faster than doing one more stop. That's what I do.

 

[Electrify]

Looking at it on Google Maps for Queen westbound, I would axe Victoria but rename Yonge as "Yonge - Victoria," just to quiet those who won't stop thinking of the seniors. Likewise I would keep York, but axe University and have the streetcar stop at Simcoe. It would be like a far side stop for University Ave and Osgoode station.

Eastbound would be a little trickier. To keep the stop within the same block as the subway entrance I would keep most the same (Duncan, University, York, Bay), but would move the Yonge stop to the far side to double with Victoria. Another alternative would be to kill the University stop and have it stop at Simcoe instead, though it would require either crossing traffic to get to the subway or a longer walk from York.

The wildcard is that University Ave was constructed through the grid Haussaman style, so it makes it difficult to keep some kind of even stop spacing. Another issue could be with far side stops that it affects safety as cars rush to get through the light and are then forced to suddenly stop for the streetcar.

 

[Forgotten]

You're forgetting that this is a hospital, not a mall or some other attraction. Who frequents hospitals? It is the sick and the elderly, just because 90-95m may not seem like much to an able bodied person, it could very well be perceived as a considerable distance to those in wheelchairs and in need of other aids to get around, particularly in the type of weather we are currently having where once again the most vulnerable are the elderly and sick. It's a worthy argument to make.

Oh the poor sick and elderly! They can't walk 90 metres! Did they teleport on to the streetcar or bus?

 

[BMO]

It's best to keep stops alternating between near side and far side (von Stein's rule). This helps maintain transit scheduling through light sequencing. If all stops were near side for local routes, there's a good chance that the route won't maintain its schedule due to traffic signals/other factors.

I seriously hope that someone tells Pam McConnell that she shouldn't dismiss the good people at the TTC, who by no means are trying to reduce service in her ward.

Correct, as I said in my post it depends on light sequencing.

My comments about local routes for near-side stops were directly related to Streetcars in mixed traffic.

Regardless the time delays and penalties you'd see from cars making lefts and being in mixed traffic would probably make very little difference whether the stop is on the far or near side. I remember for my transportation scheduling course it made very little difference especially with streetcars in mixed traffic and it was essentially just a preference of where a transit agency could fit a stop or shelter that was the determining factor, because they were prone to so many delays in mixed traffic it didn't really make a difference. Even though they have dedicated commuter lanes the scheduling is still off-put by vehicles disobeying the rules, and other unforeseen circumstances (they cannot avoid obstacles and commuter lanes are only active during rush hour), in essence making the off-schedule point moot for mixed traffic streetcars. If it was a bus, an alternating pattern would likely work in a scheduling sense, but for capacity, having a slower but higher capacity route works better for these routes downtown Toronto.

All this and this doesn't even take into account dwell times. I doubt the traffic department talks with the TTC with regards to light scheduling and thus the dwell times, compounded by requiring every passenger to pay individually at the front has a large effect as well. This will all improve once we see fewer streetcars, along with POP boarding implemented. The it may make sense to implement alternating with an aggressive Police presence during rush hour for commuter lane violators.

 

[Johnny Au]

Looking at it on Google Maps for Queen westbound, I would axe Victoria but rename Yonge as "Yonge - Victoria," just to quiet those who won't stop thinking of the seniors. Likewise I would keep York, but axe University and have the streetcar stop at Simcoe. It would be like a far side stop for University Ave and Osgoode station.

Eastbound would be a little trickier. To keep the stop within the same block as the subway entrance I would keep most the same (Duncan, University, York, Bay), but would move the Yonge stop to the far side to double with Victoria. Another alternative would be to kill the University stop and have it stop at Simcoe instead, though it would require either crossing traffic to get to the subway or a longer walk from York.

The wildcard is that University Ave was constructed through the grid Haussaman style, so it makes it difficult to keep some kind of even stop spacing. Another issue could be with far side stops that it affects safety as cars rush to get through the light and are then forced to suddenly stop for the streetcar.

Suppose the project to add in Vimy Circle (from the 1930s) were to be implemented. It would be interesting.

 

[Electrify]

And how come everyone has a bus stop and I have to walk all the way other there!
Over there?
[the bus stop is right next to him]

 

[Admiral Beez]

This reminds me of when I lived in Ottawa in the early 1990s. On Bank St. the stops are so closely spaced, with a stop before a traffic light, followed by another perhaps 30 metres, that it would take forever to get anywhere. I often thought that they could scrap 2/3 of all the stop on Bank without impacting service.

 

[ksun]

This reminds me of when I lived in Ottawa in the early 1990s. On Bank St. the stops are so closely spaced, with a stop before a traffic light, followed by another perhaps 30 metres, that it would take forever to get anywhere. I often thought that they could scrap 2/3 of all the stop on Bank without impacting service.

but the senior and disabled will find it so convenient! We as compassionate adults can't force them to walk for 30 meters, I mean, how can we?

In all seriousness, I live very close to the Victoria/Queen, and I can't wait for the stop to be scrapped. Such a waste of everyone's time. It takes the streetcar literally 10 seconds from Yonge to Victoria.

If sheltering/crowding is an issue, we can keep the east bound Victoria stop and get rid of the one in front of the Bay - in the winter, people normally wait inside 1 Queen East while waiting. And there is plenty of space in front of that Starbucks for people. Alternatively, move the Yonge stop across the street. There is more space than in front of the Bay in either case.

As to west bound, get rid of Victoria too and move the stop across Yonge to the Eaton Centre entrance, just like the Yonge stop for 505 is right in front of 10 Dundas Entrance. There are more space for people to wait, and in the winter, patrons can wait inside the mall instead of standing in the chilling wind.

In any case, the Victoria stops need to go.