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TTC: Streetcar Network

nfitz said:
Though the new 303 streetcar almost remains 100% duplicated by the 322, 301, and 304. They even kept the 322 service on Kingston Road to Bingham Loop, despite the 22 now terminating at Eastern and Queen.

But yeah, unlikely to see an overnight Bathurst car. At the same time, I didn't expect the 303 either.
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The 303, 305, and 312 are the results of having more streetcars than storage space, especially with much of Russell being under construction.
 
smallspy said:
Absolutely not.

St. Clair has had 24 hour service since well before the launch of the Blue Night network in 1987. And streetcars ran the service until 2000, when they switched to buses in order to allow for the night route to be extended to Jane Station.


Unfortunately that is unlikely to happen for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that there is already an overnight bus service running the length of Bathurst from Steeles to the Ex.

Dan
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Ah, I see from the archives this is true.I should have confirmed before posting. Lived on St Clair my entire life and I do not recall ever seeing night streetcars, but I guess I must have been too young before the year 2000 to really notice.

A night streetcar on Bathurst could potentially connect every night streetcar route in the Old City. It could even come as an extension to the 310. North on Spadina, West on College, North on Bathurst, Turn back at St Clair. The North York people can transfer at St Clair, no point in keeping the transfer point at Bloor when the subway is closed anyways. Plus such a long unreliable route especially on weekends. It also roughly follows the University subway.

I remember a litany of reasons of reasons for no streetcar service on Bathurst north of Bloor, seems less so for night service. Perhaps I'm mistaken.
 
smallspy said:
Absolutely not.

St. Clair has had 24 hour service since well before the launch of the Blue Night network in 1987. And streetcars ran the service until 2000, when they switched to buses in order to allow for the night route to be extended to Jane Station.
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Would this be a good enough reason to extend the streetcar line to Jane Station?
 
That could be a daytime route too. I wouldn't replace 310/510, but run it down to Adelaide - and then along Adelaide and turn back at Charlotte, or perhaps even York, Victoria, or even Church, looping back on Queen.
 
micheal_can said:
What about the day time? Would adding this section improve the overall transit in that area?
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St. Clair will eventually get its fair share of densification between Keele and Jane, possibly enough to justify extending the streetcar to Jane Street, if not Jane Station. That alone would cost well north of $100M in 2024 dollars, would likely require the City/TTC to go it alone funding-wise, and is still a long way off. Extending the Dundas car to meet it at Jane would be nice for network connectivity/redundancy, and if you get a future GO station at Jane/Dundas/St. Clair on an upgraded Milton (or future Midtown) Line then you're really in business.

But honestly I don't see how going all the way down to Bloor adds enough to the network to justify spending the hundreds of millions of dollars in public money (and that's a conservative estimate at this point) for this ahead of far more pressing work, especially absent provincial or federal funding. And that's assuming the idea of a Jane LRT is dead forever, which would otherwise require the same right-of-way while using different track gauge and thus entirely preclude extension of the legacy streetcar network down to Bloor.
 
mr_content said:
St. Clair will eventually get its fair share of densification between Keele and Jane, possibly enough to justify extending the streetcar to Jane Street, if not Jane Station. That alone would cost well north of $100M in 2024 dollars, would likely require the City/TTC to go it alone funding-wise, and is still a long way off. Extending the Dundas car to meet it at Jane would be nice for network connectivity/redundancy, and if you get a future GO station at Jane/Dundas/St. Clair on an upgraded Milton (or future Midtown) Line then you're really in business.

But honestly I don't see how going all the way down to Bloor adds enough to the network to justify spending the hundreds of millions of dollars in public money (and that's a conservative estimate at this point) for this ahead of far more pressing work, especially absent provincial or federal funding. And that's assuming the idea of a Jane LRT is dead forever, which would otherwise require the same right-of-way while using different track gauge and thus entirely preclude extension of the legacy streetcar network down to Bloor.
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Could the Jane LRT be built with Streetcar gauge to allow for this? My thinking of a future for something like this is within a reasonable time, so 10-20 years.
 
micheal_can said:
Could the Jane LRT be built with Streetcar gauge to allow for this? My thinking of a future for something like this is within a reasonable time, so 10-20 years.
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If it were ever built, it's hard to see it using anything but standard gauge. Easier to procure new vehicles/equipment for one, but also because it would intersect the Finch West line and interoperability would be an asset. Especially if Metrolinx has anything to say about it. I doubt the potential flexibility with a potential St. Clair extension that doesn't exist would outweigh that with the Finch West line that already does.

For what it's worth, I don't really believe an LRT on Jane is in the future plans (or else the Jane/Eglinton station on the Crosstown West extension would have been more future-proofed for it), but the merits of extending the 512 to Jane Station still aren't enough to justify the cost regardless.
 
mr_content said:
For what it's worth, I don't really believe an LRT on Jane is in the future plans (or else the Jane/Eglinton station on the Crosstown West extension would have been more future-proofed for it), but the merits of extending the 512 to Jane Station still aren't enough to justify the cost regardless.
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You'd have thought that the Line 5 platforms and Line 2 extension at Kennedy station would have been future-proofed for a Line 7 connection as well - but Metrolinx failed to do that, even though Line 2 extension and Line 7 were literally announced by the Province/City in April 2019.

I thought most of the discussion of the Jane LRT was that it would be underground for the final leg to Jane station. It remains in the city and TTC's long-term plans - but so many other projects take precedence. I'd think sooner or later the 512 will be extended to Jane Street - but presumably to a subway station or stop for Line 8 at Dundas/St. Clair.

And if I want to dive deep into fantasy-land, then 512 should continue from St. Clair/Dundas (Jane) along Dundas to Kipling station, to meet with the Dundas BRT. (an extreme fantasist might extend 512 all the way to McMaster in the west, and Scarborough GO in the east!! 🤣 ).

Here's what TTC released just before the DRL was changed for the Ontario Line in 2018.
1725051375909.png
 
mr_content said:
St. Clair will eventually get its fair share of densification between Keele and Jane, possibly enough to justify extending the streetcar to Jane Street, if not Jane Station. That alone would cost well north of $100M in 2024 dollars, would likely require the City/TTC to go it alone funding-wise, and is still a long way off. Extending the Dundas car to meet it at Jane would be nice for network connectivity/redundancy, and if you get a future GO station at Jane/Dundas/St. Clair on an upgraded Milton (or future Midtown) Line then you're really in business.

But honestly I don't see how going all the way down to Bloor adds enough to the network to justify spending the hundreds of millions of dollars in public money (and that's a conservative estimate at this point) for this ahead of far more pressing work, especially absent provincial or federal funding. And that's assuming the idea of a Jane LRT is dead forever, which would otherwise require the same right-of-way while using different track gauge and thus entirely preclude extension of the legacy streetcar network down to Bloor.
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The bigger issue is that the local ridership patterns are predominantly north-south towards Bloor, and across Dundas and St. Clair. There is also a strong east-west component - which a streetcar extended to Scarlett will help resolve - but it is also largely being filled by private auto use at this point.

Extending the St. Clair streetcar down to Jane Station doesn't serve either of these two markets. That's why it doesn't make sense.

Dan
 
According to the newest TTC service summary, only 198/204 of the original order of Flexitys remains on the active roster.


I assume that 3 of these would be 4468, which suffered an unscheduled thermal event at the close of 2022, and 4471 and 4478, which were submerged in the flooding at King and Atlantic in August 2018. The other 3 must be 4409, 4534, and 4568, the latter two of which are collision victims.
 
I saw this fun article in this mornings NYT.

www.nytimes.com

Going the Distance at the Tram Driver Olympics

Europe’s public transit captains showed off their skills at an annual championship. “We have been practicing,” a Dutch competitor said. “But the other teams have also been practicing, too.”
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
Paywall free: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/15/world/europe/tramdriver-competition-frankfurt-tram.html

Can overseas tram drivers compete? Maybe next year the TTC should send a representative?
 
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