News   Apr 15, 2024
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TTC: Streetcar Network

Does anyone know what's going on with the new 504A/B services? I had thought that by removing the longer and slightly more useful 504 service, there was supposed to be better reliability, but the new A/B service is insanely unreliable. I catch the 504B daily at Broadview/Gerrard headed into the city. With the 504, I could count on ~1 morning service being more than 5 minutes late every two weeks, which was manageable. With the 504B, it appears to be about one-two services/week that actually show up fewer than 5 minutes late.
 
Does anyone know what's going on with the new 504A/B services? I had thought that by removing the longer and slightly more useful 504 service, there was supposed to be better reliability, but the new A/B service is insanely unreliable. I catch the 504B daily at Broadview/Gerrard headed into the city. With the 504, I could count on ~1 morning service being more than 5 minutes late every two weeks, which was manageable. With the 504B, it appears to be about one-two services/week that actually show up fewer than 5 minutes late.
I (used to) take 504 down Broadview every day, from the 506. A few years ago, it was poor, and I used to check to see if one was coming before getting off the 506 (staying on to Parliament and perhaps walking south if nothing was coming). After they modified the schedule and it became more dependable back in 2015 or 2016, I stopped worrying.

Since the new schedule in October, I'm frequently seeing 15-minute gaps on Broadview.

There's 2-3 reasons for this. First they significantly cut 504 service east of Cherry. Before, with 4-minute gaps, you might have an 8-minute wait if a streetcar is missing. Now with 7-minute gaps, ... well, you can guess. There are less 504s now in service, despite the split, than there were 504/514 previously.

They also removed all the recovery time at Broadview station - this is because they can only fit one Flexity streetcar on the platform at the station - despite having been told for a decade they need to do something about the short platforms at Broadview before Flexity's are introduced.

And they removed running time from the route. Too much it would seem.

Yes, it's a disaster. They claim they are monitoring this. My advice is the more people who complain loudly and vociferously, the better.
 
Does anyone know what's going on with the new 504A/B services? I had thought that by removing the longer and slightly more useful 504 service, there was supposed to be better reliability, but the new A/B service is insanely unreliable. I catch the 504B daily at Broadview/Gerrard headed into the city. With the 504, I could count on ~1 morning service being more than 5 minutes late every two weeks, which was manageable. With the 504B, it appears to be about one-two services/week that actually show up fewer than 5 minutes late.
I am waiting to see one of Steve Munro's 'route analyses' on the split on King. Though personal anecdotal evidence is useful, a full review of service at all hours and over several weeks is what is really needed - certainly no point in hoping the TTC might do this themselves!
 
I am waiting to see one of Steve Munro's 'route analyses' on the split on King. Though personal anecdotal evidence is useful, a full review of service at all hours and over several weeks is what is really needed - certainly no point in hoping the TTC might do this themselves!

This review is taking place internally right now.
 
I am waiting to see one of Steve Munro's 'route analyses' on the split on King. Though personal anecdotal evidence is useful, a full review of service at all hours and over several weeks is what is really needed - certainly no point in hoping the TTC might do this themselves!

Absolutely. My own anecdotes aren't evidence, but damn the 504(B) sucks for me since the change. I took a screen cap of my transit app this morning. The 504 I was waiting for was stuck at 6 minutes away for 5 minutes, with the next 2 streetcars displayed as 7 and 8 minutes away. I then hopped on a 506 and connected with Line 1 as I can't be late for work 3 times/week.
 
There's 2-3 reasons for this. First they significantly cut 504 service east of Cherry. Before, with 4-minute gaps, you might have an 8-minute wait if a streetcar is missing. Now with 7-minute gaps, ... well, you can guess. There are less 504s now in service, despite the split, than there were 504/514 previously.

This is related to low-floor streetcar conversion. Even without the route split, the headway would have been widened. In fact, there are more LF's designated to King than originally budgeted due to increased ridership in the corridor. You are correct, however, that widening the headways means that the service needs to make it to the ends. This was part of the rationale for the split was to improve reliability, but there are obviously challenges with the brand new schedule that are being monitored, analyzed, and changes made as soon as possible.

They also removed all the recovery time at Broadview station - this is because they can only fit one Flexity streetcar on the platform at the station - despite having been told for a decade they need to do something about the short platforms at Broadview before Flexity's are introduced.

That is untrue. There is still some recovery at Broadview, but the majority is scheduled at Dufferin Gate, largely due to the capacity issues you mention. The tracks on Broadview north of Gerrard will be reconstructed in two or three years and at this point, station modifications can also be made at the same time. A short-term solution is being investigated.

And they removed running time from the route. Too much it would seem.

Also not true. In many cases, driving time was reduced but the reduced time was reallocated to recovery. This was to reduce slow operation mid-route. Adjustments are being made based on data being collected since the route change.

Yes, it's a disaster. They claim they are monitoring this. My advice is the more people who complain loudly and vociferously, the better.

There are challenges. It's recognized. It's being monitored. But in the big picture, it's been only a month since a brand new schedule and a brand new structure was put in place. Reacting quickly, without adequate data, may not yield positive results.
 
This is related to low-floor streetcar conversion. Even without the route split, the headway would have been widened. In fact, there are more LF's designated to King than originally budgeted due to increased ridership in the corridor. You are correct, however, that widening the headways means that the service needs to make it to the ends. This was part of the rationale for the split was to improve reliability, but there are obviously challenges with the brand new schedule that are being monitored, analyzed, and changes made as soon as possible.
The capacity on Broadview is now less than it was when it was all CLRV back in 2014. Don't forget that Broadview (and Roncesvalles) service was also cut a lot back in 2016 when 514 was first introduced. And that ignores how many of those CLRVs were actually ALRVs back then.

Back in the 2000s, we were told that there wouldn't be such extensive service cuts accompanying conversion to longer streetcar. And weren't we also told that there'd be a Broadview station to Distillery loop (Cherry loop back then) service if there were big reductions to 504 service on Broadview?

The tracks on Broadview north of Gerrard will be reconstructed in two or three years and at this point, station modifications can also be made at the same time. A short-term solution is being investigated.
Good to hear they are finally thinking about this. But personally, I started to point the capacity issue at Broadview out to TTC back in 2010 - I can't comprehend how it wasn't done already.

I'm not sure how you do anything short-term, without blocking 505 cars from entering. Though perhaps if the second car stopped and didn't use the rear doors, moving the walkway to 505.

In the long-term, you'd rebuild the loop, to move the junction onto Erindale, making room for 3 cars. Perhaps even remove cars from Erindale. Ideally reverse the loop direction as well, so that cars board near the subway entrances instead of 50 metres down the platform.

Also not true. In many cases, driving time was reduced but the reduced time was reallocated to recovery. This was to reduce slow operation mid-route. Adjustments are being made based on data being collected since the route change.
There's a lot more cars showing as running late. All I see is the average speeds are listed as higher in the service summary, for both legs, than the entire route used to be. Perhaps something is wrong somewhere.

There are challenges. It's recognized. It's being monitored. But in the big picture, it's been only a month since a brand new schedule and a brand new structure was put in place. Reacting quickly, without adequate data, may not yield positive results.
I'd think quickly adding some spare buses to run to Church and fill in frequent large gaps, wouldn't be to difficult.

Instead, what I'm seeing is more short-turns - which only reduces service on Broadview - but at least gives me something to look at walking down Parliament.

On the bright side, I'm getting more exercise. Through frustrating today in the pouring rain, when I didn't want to walk a mile. Even with a streetcar sitting at Broadview station today "6 minutes away" as I got off at Gerrard Street, 10 minutes passed before it arrived around 10:30 AM. I hadn't just missed one either! At least a 12-minute gap.

The massive service cut of mid-day frequency from the 3.75 minutes (in March 2014, before large-scale bustitution and the 514) to 7 minutes today seems to be too aggressive. And not what we lead to believe.
 
There are challenges. It's recognized. It's being monitored. But in the big picture, it's been only a month since a brand new schedule and a brand new structure was put in place. Reacting quickly, without adequate data, may not yield positive results.

I see this as: "there are unspecified challenges, which we already know about. We have a new schedule that isn't working and have had a month to tweak the service, however, reverting to the more reliable former service would be embarrassing to us. Our plan is to wait until this level of service becomes the new norm in the minds of our customers. Acting swiftly and decisively would be difficult."
 
The 505 streetcars should really terminate at the new Gerrard Square RL/SmartTrack/GO-RER station eventually, and free-up Broadview exclusively for 504 uses (although a new Broadview to East Harbour service may also be introduced).
I think the TTC's eventual plan is that the 505 will terminate at one of the new stations for the Downtown relief line.
 
Does anyone know what's going on with the new 504A/B services? I had thought that by removing the longer and slightly more useful 504 service, there was supposed to be better reliability, but the new A/B service is insanely unreliable. I catch the 504B daily at Broadview/Gerrard headed into the city. With the 504, I could count on ~1 morning service being more than 5 minutes late every two weeks, which was manageable. With the 504B, it appears to be about one-two services/week that actually show up fewer than 5 minutes late.

I am in the Roncesvalles area, and I board 504A streetcars daily to go places and I find that they ( the streetcars ) are less frequent then it used to be. The schedules have changed with the Flexities, but because I live only along the 504A section I don't know about the 504B.
 
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The 505 streetcars should really terminate at the new Gerrard Square RL/SmartTrack/GO-RER station eventually, and free-up Broadview exclusively for 504 uses (although a new Broadview to East Harbour service may also be introduced).
Didn't they take that out of the plan? I agree it should be looked at.
 
The new 504 arrangement means that customers west of Dufferin ( 504A ) and east of Sumach ( 504B ) get less frequent service in the evenings and midday. I live along Roncesvalles ( 504A ), and the frequency of the new 504A service in that section is not the same as the old through 504, espically during weekday middays and evenings. At the same time though, this focuses service in the downtown, and that there needs to be service to Dufferin and Distillery, which you can't really balance things, as I said below as well.
 
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