TTC: Streetcar Network

[BurlOak]

Saw this in the Headlines. Streetcars Make Their Return to Detroit After a 61 Year Absence

Somehow it just seems like streetcars should be on the right, and not in the centre.

 

[Fred.S]

Saw this in the Headlines. Streetcars Make Their Return to Detroit After a 61 Year Absence

Somehow it just seems like streetcars should be on the right, and not in the centre.

I think the centre is better, although boarding islands are more ideal. Especially for Toronto that has a streetcar network (versus a single line) 90 degree turns at intersections would be very difficult. As well there would be too many delays by stopping vehicles, and tracks would be problematic for cyclists and curbside parking. What boggles me though is why the US is building so many mixed-traffic streetcars on wide streets. For Detroit's line, there's so much room on the street, and it was fully rebuilt. They also don't exactly have major congestion issues (the downtown looks like a ghost town sometimes). They should've built the streetcar in it's own right-of-way.

 

[BurlOak]

I think the centre is better, although boarding islands are more ideal. Especially for Toronto that has a streetcar network (versus a single line) 90 degree turns at intersections would be very difficult. As well there would be too many delays by stopping vehicles, and tracks would be problematic for cyclists and curbside parking. What boggles me though is why the US is building so many mixed-traffic streetcars on wide streets. For Detroit's line, there's so much room on the street, and it was fully rebuilt. They also don't exactly have major congestion issues (the downtown looks like a ghost town sometimes). They should've built the streetcar in it's own right-of-way.

Pedestrians HATE walking into the street to board the streetcars and the tiny islands are just marginally better.
Agree with the turns, although left turns can still easily be done*. Essentially, more routes would have to be planned as straight lines. ondon onAlso, it is extremely difficult to change at this point in time - so likely belongs in a different thread - "if Toronto was planning a transit system from scratch". No - I won't create one.

 

[dowlingm]

With bidi streetcars there is the option to build larger islands in the centreline, but Detroit's streetcar's most heinous feature is lack of integration with DDOT buses, pitching different transit users against each other for the same road space.

 

[junctionist]

Detroit struggles to get anything right. The streetcar line should be fully integrated with the bus network. It's like they build this stuff to keep up appearances rather than actually achieving a great transit network that people of all means would want to use.

 

[amnesiajune]

Not sure if this is new, but I never saw it until now - there's some signal priority for streetcars, at least in the east end. I've noticed a few times that a streetcar will be picking up passengers at a green light, the pedestrian countdown will run out, but the light will stay green for a while and turn yellow right as the streetcar goes into the intersection.

 

[nfitz]

Not sure if this is new, but I never saw it until now - there's some signal priority for streetcars, at least in the east end. I've noticed a few times that a streetcar will be picking up passengers at a green light, the pedestrian countdown will run out, but the light will stay green for a while and turn yellow right as the streetcar goes into the intersection.

It's been like that for years.

 

[amnesiajune]

It's been like that for years.

So why are people always complaining that streetcars don't get signal priority?

 

[Avenue]

So why are people always complaining that streetcars don't get signal priority?

It's not by any definition of the word signal priority. After pedestrians stop crossing, the light stays on green for a few extra seconds, that's it. It's not a streetcar thing either, happens on Dufferin, Sherbourne etc and even happens when there's no streetcar or bus around.

 

[amnesiajune]

It's not by any definition of the word signal priority. After pedestrians stop crossing, the light stays on green for a few extra seconds, that's it.

No - what I've been seeing is that the light stays green for as long as the streetcar is picking up passengers (sometimes 20-30 seconds), and turns yellow the exact moment that the streetcar enters the intersection.

 

[robmausser]

So why are people always complaining that streetcars don't get signal priority?

The thing is that people say these black and white things "signal priority" or not, but its more nuanced than that.

You can enable signal priority, but WHAT, is the signal priority length? 2 seconds? 2 minutes?

If its 2 seconds, its useless.

Thats the problem with solutions to problems, everyone uses buzz words but theres no scope into the effectiveness and calibration of such methods.

Toronto has "smart" traffic lights. But our smart traffic lights are a joke compared to ones in LA. So you can simply skim the surface of knowledge and say "both Toronto and LA have smart traffic lights". But in practice they are two completely different worlds.

The same goes for ATC. You cant just say "The TTC has ATC it will make things better." What kind of ATC? What are the speed limits? How close can the trains operate? Etc etc.

This is a constant problem with political interference in transit initiatives. Politicians work with absolutes and buzzwords. They don't look at the minutia and the details.

I am personally very concerned with GO RER, because of how something as simple as choosing the wrong train types with the wrong acceleration profile will completely make the entire system a failure.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

No - what I've been seeing is that the light stays green for as long as the streetcar is picking up passengers (sometimes 20-30 seconds), and turns yellow the exact moment that the streetcar enters the intersection.

This is in place for most streetcar routes at most intersections. A detector is triggered by an approaching streetcar, which can extend a green light or shorten the length of a red light. In the case where it extends a green light, a second detector within the intersection cancels the extension once the streetcar clears it. The maximum green time extension is 16 seconds.

 

[Avenue]

I am a hundred percent sure it happens on non-streetcar routes as well. I think the main function really is to facilitate turns of the cars without pedestrians having cleared the road, which indirectly helps the bus or the streetcar stop being stuck approaching an intersection over multiple light cycles.

 

[robmausser]

This is in place for most streetcar routes at most intersections. A detector is triggered by an approaching streetcar, which can extend a green light or shorten the length of a red light. In the case where it extends a green light, a second detector within the intersection cancels the extension once the streetcar clears it. The maximum green time extension is 16 seconds.

IMHO it needs to be longer than 16 seconds. 30 seconds is more reasonable. Unless they move all streetcar stops to after the intersection.

As well the system should trigger changing a red to a green light quicker if a streetcar approaches a red light.

It needs to be more aggressive. Streetcars absolutely deserve priority.

 

[W. K. Lis]

IMHO it needs to be longer than 16 seconds. 30 seconds is more reasonable. Unless they move all streetcar stops to after the intersection.

As well the system should trigger changing a red to a green light quicker if a streetcar approaches a red light.

It needs to be more aggressive. Streetcars absolutely deserve priority.

Extending the green light is the cheapest "transit priority", because everyone gets to go on the green.

There is the "transit signal", but only the vertical bar is allowed in Ontario.

How many decades will it be before Ontario the rest of the world with true "transit signals"?

Or something like:

See link.