11th
Senior Member
Blame inflation, wasn't the Sheppard subway (Yonge-Don Mills) cost just less than $2b? (and that included the Don River bridge, and the reconstruction of Sheppard station)
|
|
|
TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)
- Thread starter LAz
- Start date
11th
Senior Member
Doesn't matter to people who see LRT as the future for Toronto. It seems to them, the current subway network is adequate (save for a DRL), any future rail transit should all be based on LRTs, and LRT construction should have priority to any sort of transit funding. Subways will always cost more than LRTs, so it's really down to a matter of personal preference. If you prefer LRT, you'll say anything to justify its construction; same goes for subways.
If given a choice of $3b for an eastern DRL and LRTs on Finch West, Sheppard East and Eglinton to airport, they might go for the LRT plan since it's a better bang for the buck, at least in their opinion.
Last edited:
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
That can work as long as convenient Commuter Rail within the city is thrown into the mix.
Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
Whether it is LRTs or subways, I just want something built to convince me to leave my car at home
nfitz
Superstar
We've discussed the time savings in detail before. Even the Sheppard East Rocket takes 12 minutes to go the 3 km to Warden in PM rush hour. That's 15 km/hr. The LRT will take 8 minutes at 23 km/hr (and likely faster, probably 7 minutes, as about 1/3 of that is completely underground). Transfer times will be greatly reduced as you don't have to climb up forever from the platform to the current terminal. What takes about 16 minutes now, should take 8-9 minutes. That's significant saving. And that's only for those that go 25% down the track.
For those going the 9 km to Markham Road, the travel time is currently 37 minutes (and that assumes the bus is on time!). With LRT it becomes about 23 minutes. If the subway is extended to Victoria Park, you'll have about 4 minutes on the subway, and a 28-minute ride on the bus. That's 32 minutes.
So 23 minutes if you spend the $billion on LRT, but 32 minutes if you spend it on subway?
If we're going to spend $500 million/km for subways, we should be doing it where it's more needed. Yonge north of Finch. Downtown Relief line.
accura407
Car is King
Has anyone thought of this angle?
Feds have put forth $333 Million for Sheppard, initially for the LRT project.
The city reallocates $1 Billion from Eglinton LRT into Sheppard
The private sector contributes 20-30% for the project (Roughly $500 Million)
Suddenly we are looking at almost $2 billion in the Sheppard corridor.
Tunnel boring machines are already purchased and ready to go after Spadina. Cut n Cover from Vic Park to Warden?
I think this line could hit Warden if all 3 sources are properly allocated. From warden onwards, I think diamond lanes will suffice.
Subways surely cannot be this expensive! There has to be a cheaper way to do this... 2KM for $1 Billion? How does this extension cost 500 Million/km?
I think the people against Subways are just upping the cost up and up to make it unfavourable with the public.
Feds have put forth $333 Million for Sheppard, initially for the LRT project.
The city reallocates $1 Billion from Eglinton LRT into Sheppard
The private sector contributes 20-30% for the project (Roughly $500 Million)
Suddenly we are looking at almost $2 billion in the Sheppard corridor.
Tunnel boring machines are already purchased and ready to go after Spadina. Cut n Cover from Vic Park to Warden?
I think this line could hit Warden if all 3 sources are properly allocated. From warden onwards, I think diamond lanes will suffice.
Subways surely cannot be this expensive! There has to be a cheaper way to do this... 2KM for $1 Billion? How does this extension cost 500 Million/km?
I think the people against Subways are just upping the cost up and up to make it unfavourable with the public.
nfitz
Superstar
How would you get a half-billion from the private sector.
Wouldn't that be more expensive on a major road Sheppard? The amount of soil that would be disposed of would increase significantly. All the services along Sheppard would have to be relocated first. The traffic disruption would be big. Surely tunnelling wouldn't be any more expensive, and perhaps even cheaper.
Why do you think Stintz is against Subways?
11th
Senior Member
It only costs 500million/km if it's from Don Mills to Victoria Park, as the 404 is the real obstacle, and also you'll need the tail tracks etc for the terminal station. If you build it longer, the cost will be spreaded out, and it won't be 500million/km; but then, one will tell you the ridership's not there eastward to justify any further extension.
Tulse
Senior Member
Per this article, New York's current subway extension costs $1.7 billion per kilometre, and London and Amsterdam's recent expansions cost $350 million/km and $400 million/km respectively. So $500 million/km is not at all out of whack for this kind of work.
Paleo
Active Member
So we want to build subways to ease rush hour traffic around a mall now? Back in the old days we used to build subways to replace trunk lines that carried 10,000pph. No wonder the TTC loses so much money nowadays.
sixrings
Senior Member
it sounds stupid saying we are building lines around "malls". instead i would suggest thats malls inevitably because of the land around them will become mini city centres in a sense. we can see that people in canada love their malls and want to live close to them which is causing places like stc, fairview, square 1 and even some degree sherway see so many condo projects built around them. yorkdale probably would see the most development if it werent for the height limit from the downsview area. these "malls" are often transit hubs as well serviced by both GO and their own municipalities transit. These "malls" are also seeing businesses build around them. businesses and residential have to be transit motivators. maybe not in 2012 but surely by 2025 these ares will become much much more then "malls". the have so much land and so much potential.
nfitz
Superstar
I believe the last number was the Metrolinx 5 in 10 estimate of $1.1 billion in year of spending, including the grade separation, currently under construction. Pretty much the cost of completing the LRT and building the subway are about the same, plus/minus $50 million or so.
BRT is okay for 3,500 but you need to build a $1-billion subway to transport 5,000 people 2 kilometres? Given that for many users, the travel time would be shorter on the LRT, than bus+subway, why would we do this?
Surely a proper cost-benefit analysis is necessary.
Paleo
Active Member
How does condo development at STC or Fairview compare to downtown? We're trending away from that type of development if anything. I have never heard anyone say they want to live close to a mall I've heard people say they want a big house with big yard in the burbs or downtown and close to the action and amenities... never a mall.
sixrings
Senior Member
so you are suggesting that the condos being built around square 1 and stc are all vacant? maybe people dont say it but they surely are buying it. i also never suggested that a drl shouldnt be built. of course it should be. unfortunately the sheppard line is already partly built and is being advocated by a number of politicians. sadly i have yet to hear of any politican advocating for the drl and that includes all the other mayoral candidates.
Dan416
Senior Member
We absolutely should be building a subway to Square One. But that's neither here nor there.
I'm 100% in favour of the Sheppard Subway expansion to Vic Park. The SELRT required some measure of tunneling anyway. Might as well make it part of the subway. The EA is done. The TBMs will be available. And we'd finish part of what we started. And if Ford can get some of his private money we could milk another station out of it possibly.
I'm 100% in favour of the Sheppard Subway expansion to Vic Park. The SELRT required some measure of tunneling anyway. Might as well make it part of the subway. The EA is done. The TBMs will be available. And we'd finish part of what we started. And if Ford can get some of his private money we could milk another station out of it possibly.