Oh give me a break! 100% of the capital funds going towards Toronto transit projects are coming from Provincial pockets. It isn't "Toronto's" money. There is no "us vs them" when the money for either project is coming from the same pockets.
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TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)
- Thread starter LAz
- Start date
Oh give me a break! 100% of the capital funds going towards Toronto transit projects are coming from Provincial pockets. It isn't "Toronto's" money. There is no "us vs them" when the money for either project is coming from the same pockets.
nfitz
Superstar
This just isn't true. The province of Ontario is only paying 1/3 of the cost of the Spadina extension to Von.
But all of TC was Provincial money, aside from the little bit coming from the Feds for Sheppard. I consider Spadina to be old news, mainly because its funding has been the subject of any kind of speculation for years. Transit City (or the funding originally allocated for it), is still very much up in the air. That's what I was referring to. I agree that I should have been clearer with my post though, my bad.
I was simply objecting to this "us vs them" mentality, the idea that "we're" paying for "their" subway line. It's simply not the case if the money is coming from Provincial pockets. It just sounds really childish to me, that's all.
agoraflaneur
Active Member
I wish it wasn't us versus them, but the suburbs really want it all and don't want to pay for needed TO infrastructure while using up all the commuting seats themselves, and in the case of GO, sullying the neighbourhoods of Toronto with dirty diesel trains. Toronto needs to benefit as well.
Palma
Senior Member
But who is paying the annual operating costs to run the TTC? It use to be the provincial government contributed I think 75% but this is no longer the case. It contributes 1/3. So it does not matter that a portion of the money is provincial for the Spadina extension. Operational costs will be from the TTC and Toronto. People coming from Vaughan should be using Go and thats what the government should be building not a subway to get those people into Toronto and as the previous poster says - taking up commuting seats
44 North
Senior Member
I have an inherent "us vs them" attitude which even delves into an inner 416/outer 416 'us vs them' contention. The polarity of my perception on transit matters is broken-down as follows: Either a well-functioning city that grew alongside its efficient transit system, OR, everything outside Old Toronto/East York.
And I tend to be a tad facetious in how I exaggerate issues, so my comments should be taken with a grain of salt. That being said, Prov tax dollars are still my dollars. Just because the pool of money comes from a bigger source doesn't mean I wouldn't care if it was spent willy nilly. This is particularly true for projects that ultimately burden T.O.
And I tend to be a tad facetious in how I exaggerate issues, so my comments should be taken with a grain of salt. That being said, Prov tax dollars are still my dollars. Just because the pool of money comes from a bigger source doesn't mean I wouldn't care if it was spent willy nilly. This is particularly true for projects that ultimately burden T.O.
Personally I think that GO is going to take a lot of the pressure off of the current subway system once it's electrified, and more stops are added inside of Toronto. The only reason why the extension of the Yonge line into York Region is even an issue is because of the at-capacity situation further down the line. One could argue that if Toronto hadn't gone back to the drawing board 4 times in the past 20 years that something may have actually been built. Don't blame the suburbs for knowing what they want, and continually asking for the same thing. It seems like with every mayoral administration in Toronto the transit wish list is something different.
I think we also need to remember that as it stands right now, Toronto is about to get the single largest rapid transit investment in the City's history (speaking of course about the Eglinton LRT). So it's not like the suburbs are getting everything and Toronto is getting nothing. Every city/region is getting at least one thing on their wish list in the first round of funding. Toronto WAS getting 4 LRT lines until they screwed it up. York Region is getting the Yonge extension and VIVA enhancements. Mississauga is getting the Transitway and Hurontario LRT. Etc etc etc.
I guess what I'm saying is this: don't blame the suburbs for causing lines to become over-capacity when Toronto can't get it's shit together to decide what it wants. Toronto was given $8B for transit, and they chose to piss it away on projects that didn't adequately deal with their most pressing issues. That's not York Region's fault.
GenerationW
Senior Member
DOA in the short-term. And since, as you said, the DRL is currently locked into a 25-year time frame, if anything I was being optimistic.
Transit City completed by 2020? Seems highly unlikely based on the record of past comprehensive Toronto transit plans, but I guess we'll never know now.
Haven't heard a peep about that study since Ford became Mayor. I wonder if he indefinitely delayed it.
York Region has already been successful once. David Miller pushed for a Sheppard subway extension in his first term and was soundly defeated, yet he still picked himself up and publicly backed Spadina when the decision came down.
When York lines up full funding for Yonge and the Province tells Toronto it's either a Yonge extension or nothing for the next few years, does anyone think Toronto will try to turn it down? I can't imagine any Toronto Mayor missing a subway ribbon-cutting ceremony, especially one on Toronto most prominent street.
sixrings
Senior Member
in order for that mayor to get 2 subway stops which would please a minority of people they would have to be willing to piss off the majority with a subway line that is even more croweded then now. The only mayor who might be so desperate for this sort of ribbon cutting ceremony would be rob ford and thats only because he promised transit to go underground. other then the drl when the price tags come in,no other mayor in the future will be promoting these luxury lines in the suburbs. this is especially true now that the city is going further and furth in debt.
sixrings
Senior Member
in order for that mayor to get 2 subway stops which would please a minority of people they would have to be willing to piss off the majority with a subway line that is even more croweded then now. The only mayor who might be so desperate for this sort of ribbon cutting ceremony would be rob ford and thats only because he promised transit to go underground. other then the drl when the price tags come in,no other mayor in the future will be promoting these luxury lines in the suburbs. this is especially true now that the city is going further and furth in debt.
JoeParez
Transit Enthusiast
The DRL has been subject to conversation way before York Region joined the party with the Spadina extension, so again -- why is it York Region's fault that Toronto can't get their shit together with regard to planning transit? Reading articles about Toronto's past transit planning, I think it's safe to say that a DRL is not a priority. That DRTES page on the TTC website hasn't been updated in ages!
Instead of a Queen line which was desperately needed in the 1950's when the Yonge line was built - they build Bloor, University and the Spadina extension. Instead of Network 2011, they get 1/5th of a Sheppard Line. Instead of 4 brand new Provincially funded LRT lines for $8 billion, they get only Eglinton running underground for $8 billion. Toronto continues to let themselves and their residents down.
I will eat my hat if a DRL happens in the next 22 years -- I'll be 50 by then. And I'm not saying this as a 905er trying to stick it in your (Downtown) craw - I would gladly stand next to Torontoians in a fight to get a DRL, but I don't see one happening and I don't think anyone outside of the message forum really cares to do anything about it. For now, the TTC is going to wait until the province and some other municipality helps them fund mass transit projects -- but it won't be a DRL.
sixrings
Senior Member
although part of what you say is true the fact is the province and the feds have rarely offered any finances to any of torontos transit plans. your post makes me want to encourage another 50 condos at yonge and finch. So many that yonge line is not even usable for torontonians south of the 401. but also so packed enough that the 905 would recognize that a drl is needed and its not just toronto who should have to pay for it. i sometimes hate he sheppard line because of all the condos along the 401 which cause sadly more car use then ttc use. however i do love how the 401 is getting less and less friendly to 905ers. btw 401 needs a toll. anyways how bout we dont build that yonge extension and actually waste more money on the sheppard line. at least then torontonians will get around there own city versus helping 905 clog the system. i have no problem with 905 but they need topay when they use our roads and our subway. you can charge me a toll whenever i go out to 905. collect a toll once every two weeks when i go to the cottage while we can collect a toll every day when you come into toronto.
44 North
Senior Member
The TTC will never be able to get their shit together if they continually have to make compromises that cater to: councillors, councillor's constituents, mayors. Look at our subway system, it's nothing but compromises! Even Network 2011 was a BS compromise that bowed to suburban wards. And what came out of it? The most useless of all the projects built as the most expensive technology. Smart transit planning takes a backseat in this town.
As long as the sway of suburban voters exists, the TTC will never be able to get its shit together.
As long as the sway of suburban voters exists, the TTC will never be able to get its shit together.
Network 2011 was the last transit plan that actually addressed the issue of reducing congestion on heavily used lines, via the DRL. The simple fact is the most profitable and most used rapid transit lines built in the past 60 years have been responses to a congested transit line. The Yonge subway was built because the Yonge streetcar was a nightmare. The Bloor-Danforth subway was built because the Bloor-Danforth streetcar was a nightmare. These were simple responses to "this line is too crowded, we need to increase capacity". You can reduce congestion on a line by either upgrading the line itself, or building a parallel line that syphons off riders. The DRL would be the latter in response to a congested Yonge line, and indeed that was the whole rationale behind the University-Spadina subway.
Any transit plan that doesn't address congestion in the most chronic areas is doomed to failure. At this point, all Toronto really needs is a DRL and the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown route. Everything else is just feeder lines. If these were the two projects of focus for the TTC, none of the talks we're having right now would even be necessary.
Tulse
Senior Member
Short of the province or feds taking it over, how can it avoid that? The TTC is a creature of the City of Toronto, and as such is, and rightly should be, responsible to city council and the mayor. The problem is not that the TTC is governed that way, it is that we have had terrible city councils and mayors that lack long-term vision and a sense of responsibility to the future.