TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[Justin10000]

I sick of BS like this. STC is far more than the mall. In fact, hardly anybody going through STC on a regular basis goes into the mall. This is just as moronic as saying that Hurontario in Mississauga is only Square One or that northern Yonge is only about NYCC.

STC is a mall, a few apartments, and some government offices. There is little reason to build a subway to that area. It`ll just reinforce how bad transit planning in Toronto is. The SELRT would have connected to the S(L)RT in Malvern, and provided more benefits than a subway. Have YOU ever driven down Sheppard. I am amazed people are advocating a subway there.

 

[LAz]

I'm getting that buzzing sound in my head again. Oh man it's having some side effects, making me think of something...



...perhaps a finch LRT would be cool, and then later the sheppard subway would go up from downsview, using the same tracks as the spadina line, and continue as a finch subway.

Is that insane, or somewhat plausible?

Have YOU ever driven down Sheppard. I am amazed people are advocating a subway there.

Aww man, this might surprise you, but it already has a subway.

 

[Justin10000]

Aww man, this might surprise you, but it already has a subway.

A STUBway, and a severely underused one at that. And no, extending it to a mall, and a few condo towers isn`t going to improve ridership much.

 

[LAz]

A STUBway, and a severely underused one at that. And no, extending it to a mall, and a few condo towers isn`t going to improve ridership much.

I think it's a beautiful and very successful subway line.

It's sexy.

 

[andrewpmk]

I completely agree with the idea of a crosstown Finch LRT. The combined daily ridership for both Finch E and W is almost 100,000.

However, your idea of a Sheppard extension reaching the airport is completely insane. So effing what if the 401 is heavily congested?! Many of the vehicles on it are not even from the 416. Hell, many aren't even from the 905. Why the f*ck should we spend $20+ Billion building a 40km long commuter subway line? The 401 might be crowded, but it's not a destination.

Using congestion on the 401 as an argument for a building a subway does not work. That's a regional issue - i.e for GO. Not TTC. The TTC should not be in the business of building sprawling, multi-storey parking garages at stations. Nor should it be in the business of ferrying long-distance commuters. When Eglinton is complete (hopefully to Pearson), we'll have two cross-city subways. And if a Finch LRT is built... there should be no reason to extend Sheppard one inch.

1. Highway 401 is the busiest highway in North America. It is extremely congested all the time despite having up to 18 lanes in certain sections.
2. Much of the traffic on the 401 is local commuter traffic between points in the 416 and between 416 and 905 in both directions. Out of town traffic is a small percentage of the traffic on that highway.
3. The proposal to extend Sheppard west of Downsview is very long term (would not be built until after 2030). It would only be built after Eglinton subway and Finch LRT are built, and both are saturated (and only if the 401 is still severely congested then). I assume that the GTA will grow a lot in the next 20 years so this project will be easier to justify. Also west of Weston Road the subway would run in the hydro corridor then perhaps in the median of Highway 409 southwest to near the airport, so the cost would be far less than $20 billion.
4. The line would be fed by north south feeder buses at every main cross street, bus connections at the airport and STC, and future transit oriented development, not parking lots. There would be few or no park and ride lots.
5. An extended Sheppard line would cement North York Centre as the main employment area in northern Toronto, by dramatically improving connections with the eastern and western suburbs. Observe the huge traffic jams during rush hour on Yonge Street in North York Centre as office workers in that area drive to and from the 401, the transit service in that area is totally inadequate. Finch LRT and Eglinton may not be adequate in the long term.

 

[Justin10000]

I think it's a beautiful and very successful subway line.

It's sexy.

Being the Liberal I am, I do not criticize your fantasies!

 

[44 North]

Look man, I have no idea why the LRT promoters imagine us subway-philes imagining subways in eastern Scarborough.

I'm a subway-phile through and through. But I know that subways should be used for moving hundreds of thousands of people to important destinations. Not 50,000 from one hub destination (STC), +10km to an overcrowded Yonge line. There is very little in between to justify a subway.

Take a look at Mexico City's metro system for example, and then say something. Heck, in Moscow they are building the second ring line!

Yeah, Moscow is building a second ring line. But it also has a dozen other lines radiating out from their core. We have two. We need more than that before we start worrying about concentric/crosstown feeder lines.

It boggles my mind how one could dare want a LRT line on Sheppard rather than a subway on Sheppard. My only explanation is that they do not use it and so they want this inferior stuff.

Because a Sheppard extension will cost us $5 BILLION! We have real priorities for high order transit: namely, a DRL. Sheppard is NOT a priority. The ridership on the 85 Sheppard East (28,000) is a testament of that. The Eglinton Crosstown/S(L)RT is more than adequate for getting people from STC to their destination.

 

[44 North]

The Eglinton Crosstown needs to be built in conjunction with a Downtown Relief Line. Even then, the DRL should be extended north of Eglinton before any talk of Sheppard is on the table. That is our priority. Any talk of spending $Billions for high-order transit in fringe areas of the city should hold off until these priorities are addressed.

 

[11th]

I'm getting that buzzing sound in my head again. Oh man it's having some side effects, making me think of something...

...perhaps a finch LRT would be cool, and then later the sheppard subway would go up from downsview, using the same tracks as the spadina line, and continue as a finch subway.

Is that insane, or somewhat plausible?

If that happens, there won't be any need of LRT east of Keele on Finch. Finch West riders can transfer at Spadina or Yonge line (or future GO station at Downsview Park) to get downtown. Finch East riders will use north-south routes to get to Sheppard. With some extension of Crosstown/SRT, even the transit problem at Malvern is solved.

 

[Dan416]

Can we put to rest the urban myth/legend/fraud that the Sheppard subway is not well used? kthxbai

 

[LAz]

Can we put to rest the urban myth/legend/fraud that the Sheppard subway is not well used? kthxbai

Some people will not matter what you say. They see it as failure and are restless because it exists.

Any talk of spending $Billions for high-order transit in fringe areas of the city should hold off until these priorities are addressed.

It is not fair to derogatorily write them off like that.

Because a Sheppard extension will cost us $5 BILLION!

Give me a billion to extend it partially. Just one billion. Heck, make that half a billion... anything to just extend it a little bit.

Yeah, Moscow is building a second ring line. But it also has a dozen other lines radiating out from their core. We have two. We need more than that before we start worrying about concentric/crosstown feeder lines.

Aww come on man. You can't compare the two like that. Moscow does not have a lake beside it. So cut their system in half and then cut it in another half because of the much higher population and you will get something more feasible. Not to mention that car usage is far less over there.

This is the old map of their metro system. Cut that mofo in half and you won't get something that looks too different from Toronto's system. Don't for get, Toronto has four lines going into downtown. Look at spadina as a route, not half a line. So all of a sudden it becomes whoah we have lots of routes already.

But I know that subways should be used for moving hundreds of thousands of people to important destinations.

Tens of thousands are fine figures for subways. Very fine figures.

 

[44 North]

They see it as failure and are restless because it exists.

50,000 for a 5km line is actually quite decent. However, I think an extension to STC wouldn't increase that amount greatly. Maybe another 10-15,000?

It is not fair to derogatorily write them off like that.

It is fair. The demand doesn't exist for HRT subways. Look at the most current (2006) density maps for that area. Even around STC the employment/residential density is virtually nil.

Heck, make that half a billion... anything to just extend it a little bit.

I can see an extension to Vic Park increasing the line by a few thousand/day. My problem would be that many would be park-and-ride - i.e people new to using the TTC. The Yonge line can barely handle any more TTC users.

Aww come on man. You can't compare the two like that. Moscow does not have a lake beside it. So cut their system in half and then cut it in another half because of the much higher population and you will get something more feasible.

That is a good point. My go-to for comparing Toronto to worldwide metro systems is Chicago. Identical geography and similar population. Their system consists solely of lines radiating from their core...just like most systems worldwide. No crosstown lines. No feeder lines. All lines leading to their core/CBD. When Eglinton is complete, we'll have two crosstown lines. That is more than enough. We need to deal with the important NW to SE and NE to SW travel patterns.

Tens of thousands are fine figures for subways. Very fine figures.

Compared to North American standard, yes the ridership is okay. Compared to Toronto standards, not really. The problem is we have bus and streetcar lines with identical ridership: +200,000 using 4 E/W streetcar lines in mixed traffic within a km of one another, Finch E/W carrying almost 100,000, Dufferin, Don Mills etc... Comparatively speaking, Sheppard is nothing special.

A new line branching out from downtown (DRL) is a priority. If it eventually reaches to Sheppard, its benefits would be quantum leaps ahead of a Downsview to STC Sheppard Subway.

 

[LAz]

50,000 for a 5km line is actually quite decent. However, I think an extension to STC wouldn't increase that amount greatly. Maybe another 10-15,000?

I wouldn't expand it all the way there right away.

I can see an extension to Vic Park increasing the line by a few thousand/day. My problem would be that many would be park-and-ride - i.e people new to using the TTC. The Yonge line can barely handle any more TTC users.

Eh I think they'll get by. Many of those are going on the yonge line anyway.
But, that's good nonetheless to get people to use transit more. If anything it would put more pressure for doing something about capacity issues.

It is fair. The demand doesn't exist for HRT subways. Look at the most current (2006) density maps for that area. Even around STC the employment/residential density is virtually nil.

But it was so for much of Toronto's system. So, if we used that logic, our system today would be half its size. :/

That is a good point. My go-to for comparing Toronto to worldwide metro systems is Chicago. Identical geography and similar population. Their system consists solely of lines radiating from their core...just like most systems worldwide. No crosstown lines. No feeder lines. All lines leading to their core/CBD. When Eglinton is complete, we'll have two crosstown lines. That is more than enough. We need to deal with the important NW to SE and NE to SW travel patterns.

Make that a big 'cause I know a thing or two about Chicago, considering I lived there for some years.
Chicago is not so close to compare. It's a city which has many small suburbs. They have some 70% of the chicagoland's population. Kinda scary if you think about it, if you ask me. Toronto does not have that situation.
The other thing about Chicago is that it is a system which was for the most part built 100 years ago. It's not a modern transit system. Since ww2 it has not developed like a normal world city would. If anything, the city became a ghetto for the most part. There was very little expansion of the system. In fact there was contraction! *shudder*
Chicago desperately wants to expand its metro system. It simply does not have money to fund anything. Whatever they do expand, it's thanks to big federal grants or because someone secured funding. They're building a station called Morgan right now... it was supposed to have been made almost 20 years ago but it took them 15 years to get funding for it. I mean hey, they built only one line in 40 years. And that's thanks to political dealings for someone supporting reagan for a war. Are we really going to compare Toronto to this disaster called Chicago?
They do have a feeder line... it's the yellow line. They are gonna open a third stop on that stub line, it's about 10 years late.
Oh, remember that washington station on the red line? It was under construction/renovation for like 18 out of 20 years. And then they decided to permanently close it a couple years ago. XD That's Chicago.

Compared to North American standard, yes the ridership is okay. Compared to Toronto standards, not really. The problem is we have bus and streetcar lines with identical ridership: +200,000 using 4 E/W streetcar lines in mixed traffic within a km of one another, Finch E/W carrying almost 100,000, Dufferin, Don Mills etc... Comparatively speaking, Sheppard is nothing special.

A new line branching out from downtown (DRL) is a priority. If it eventually reaches to Sheppard, its benefits would be quantum leaps ahead of a Downsview to STC Sheppard Subway.

Toronto standards are exceptionally high for North American standards. Keep that in mind.
But, we did not use those standards to build most of the subway in Toronto.

 

[44 North]

I agree that subways are great for spurring development and getting people out of their cars. But we have a broken system at the moment. Extensions to shopping malls, or Vaughan (thanks, Miller) will not fix this.

My comparison to Chicago was strictly geographic. You're right, socially and demographically it's very different. And good point about their Yellow line. I looked it up and that line carries a tenth of what Sheppard does.

Regardless, I made up a couple images: One is of what is needed to fix our broken system. The other is a prime example of top-down planning (literally, and figuratively). We have limited funds. They need to be used wisely.

 

[nfitz]

I think that 8,000 was the report in the sheppard subway EA. At any rate, 8,000 is a fine figure. There is no reason to be ashamed of such ridership figures for a subway. We should embrace that rather than shun it for a stupid LRT.

If that was the highest demand of any planned lines in the GTA, I'd agree with you. But it isn't. If you look at the Metrolinx projections for 2031, they forecast peak ridership on the Yonge Extension to Richmond Hill as 8,800 per direction per hour. They forecast the peak ridership on the Downtown Relief line as 17,500 per direction per hour. The recent Metrolinx forecast for the Eglinton Crosstown line was 12,000. These should take priority. As should the many LRT lines which would peak ridership over 4,000 or so an hour - much more bang for a buck.