Paleo
Active Member
It wouldn't. No one would ever do that because it would add 15 minutes or more to the trip to downtown.
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TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)
- Thread starter LAz
- Start date
It wouldn't. No one would ever do that because it would add 15 minutes or more to the trip to downtown.
andrewpmk
Senior Member
Extending Sheppard west of Yonge (particularly if it were eventually extended west of Downsview) would help a great deal with traffic on the 401 though. Highway 400 to Highway 409 is the most congested section and is often congested outside rush hour, 400 to 404 is pretty bad too, whereas 401 east of 404 is usually only bad in rush hour.
Sheppard will not affect crowding on the Yonge line very much. I think that the main purpose of Sheppard is (a) to encourage employment growth in North York Centre and to a lesser extent Scarborough Centre (b) to serve the Consumers Rd business park, the Downsview Airport area, York University and other areas along or near the line (c) as a reliever for Highway 401 and the Sheppard/Finch/York Mills/Wilson buses. I think that an extended Sheppard line would mostly serve suburb to suburb traffic, similar to the Eglinton line, not downtown traffic. The only solution to overcrowding on the Yonge line is GO lines such as Richmond Hill, Stouffville and Barrie, but improving service on these lines will not really affect demand for suburb to suburb travel much (as anyone who uses the 401 regularly can attest, most people using that highway do not go downtown).
Sheppard will not affect crowding on the Yonge line very much. I think that the main purpose of Sheppard is (a) to encourage employment growth in North York Centre and to a lesser extent Scarborough Centre (b) to serve the Consumers Rd business park, the Downsview Airport area, York University and other areas along or near the line (c) as a reliever for Highway 401 and the Sheppard/Finch/York Mills/Wilson buses. I think that an extended Sheppard line would mostly serve suburb to suburb traffic, similar to the Eglinton line, not downtown traffic. The only solution to overcrowding on the Yonge line is GO lines such as Richmond Hill, Stouffville and Barrie, but improving service on these lines will not really affect demand for suburb to suburb travel much (as anyone who uses the 401 regularly can attest, most people using that highway do not go downtown).
LAz
Active Member
No. What is needed is wise coordination of transit and development. We used to do this, but this would require more government intervention. And it happens that free market and libertarian freaks can not accept this.
http://www3.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/Subway ridership 2009-2010.pdf
Don Mills clearly shows how you are clueless. Other stations are not too bad. I mean hey, just look at Bayview, almost 10,000. These are not bad numbers. They're enough to justify a metro.
I wipe by butt with the EA. I print it off on custom toilet paper and I wipe my but with it whenever I can.
It's a stupid biased piece of junk. It was rushed through on purpose with one goal in mind. EA's simply promote an agenda. That's all that they do.
One could say "look at the sheppard subway EA"... They had one for that, didn't they? When one has different priorities and criteria then the picture changes a lot.
This is not a problem nor something that one should worry about. Government intervenes and makes jobs go there. We did that and that's Toronto's subway was one of the best in the world for some time. Then things changed, and the metropolitan government became redundant. We have to shun the free market fanatic ludicrous logic. There has to be intervention, to force companies to locate in those certain places. Growth boundaries, land use, and whatever else. But even fi we do not do that, it's the simple reality that subways bring about lots and lots of development even without government intervention.
LAz
Active Member
If we are serious of having an alternative to the automobile, we have to have a full sheppard line, asap.
44 North
Senior Member
Jeez. Sheppard and it's advocates are really limiting progress on transit for this city. When Ford said "the people have spoken", he really should have said "a few loud, angry Scarberians have spoken".
Whether people believe the EAs are crap or not, that doesn't change the fact that the SELRT had the lowest projected ridership of all Transit City routes. Even in light of this, they still believe it's worth spending $5,000,000,000 to build a subway instead. The ultimate root of their argument: they want Sheppard to be bustling like downtown. Well, maybe in a hundred years. Til then, it will be a sparsely-populated arterial. Very little pedestrian traffic exists there, even between Don Mills and Yonge. It's not worthy of a full-fledged metro! Especially considering how behind we are.
Eglinton should be this city's outer crosstown route. And on top of Bloor/Danforth, this will suffice for bringing people across the city. Of New York's 24 subway lines, all but one passes through Manhattan (the G). Even then, that line's proximity to the core is on par with St Clair/Eglinton. Just like 95% of all rapid transit systems around the world, we need more lines radiating out from the core. Not piecemeal feeder lines to make residents of former boroughs feel satisfied with their communities.
Whether people believe the EAs are crap or not, that doesn't change the fact that the SELRT had the lowest projected ridership of all Transit City routes. Even in light of this, they still believe it's worth spending $5,000,000,000 to build a subway instead. The ultimate root of their argument: they want Sheppard to be bustling like downtown. Well, maybe in a hundred years. Til then, it will be a sparsely-populated arterial. Very little pedestrian traffic exists there, even between Don Mills and Yonge. It's not worthy of a full-fledged metro! Especially considering how behind we are.
Eglinton should be this city's outer crosstown route. And on top of Bloor/Danforth, this will suffice for bringing people across the city. Of New York's 24 subway lines, all but one passes through Manhattan (the G). Even then, that line's proximity to the core is on par with St Clair/Eglinton. Just like 95% of all rapid transit systems around the world, we need more lines radiating out from the core. Not piecemeal feeder lines to make residents of former boroughs feel satisfied with their communities.
drum118
Superstar
I will add this article that show what an LRT can do since the Sheppard subway will not. There still a bidding war going on to get the line extended to various areas with an extension to get under way shortly.
This line is not 3 years old and has already pass all projections to the point it is 400 riders away from meeting its 2020 numbers. Given what taking place now and what is on the board, the numbers will be about 50% higher if not more by 2020 than plan for.
This line is not 3 years old and has already pass all projections to the point it is 400 riders away from meeting its 2020 numbers. Given what taking place now and what is on the board, the numbers will be about 50% higher if not more by 2020 than plan for.
Phoenix, Ariz
Light rail sets record for ridership
[Tim Hacker, Tribune]
Light Rail App
A new app for smartphone users lets them know about businesses along the light rail line. [Tim Hacker/ Tribune]
Related Stories
Posted: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 4:05 pm | Updated: 4:06 pm, Wed Oct 19, 2011.
Tribune
Metro light rail set a ridership record in September, making the month the busiest since the system opened in December 2008. Metro reported 1,241,701 boardings and it said this year’s ridership is about 4 percent higher than last year.
Metro ridership has grown so quickly that it’s approaching levels projected for 2020. The system carried 47,818 riders on average during weekdays last month, compared with a projected 48,004 in 2020 that was estimated when Metro was in the planning stages.
Metro also broke a record for its busiest day, with 60,437 passengers on Sept. 9. Ridership on that Friday was driven by the Arizona Diamondbacks and Arizona State University football.
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/local/article_e054b294-faa6-11e0-b320-001cc4c03286.html
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sixrings
Senior Member
if the system grew so fast the logical thing to do would be to put LRT on finch and ellesmere as well. Same with Eglinton... If Eglinton becomes over capacity then we should see a Lawrence LRT.
nfitz
Superstar
And after you've wiped your butt what ridership number do have for Sheppard extended? The highest hourly ridership for Sheppard I've seen, extended to STC, is still only about 8,000. And that was assuming that the current SRT remained. I'd think that may be lower once it's a one-seat ride from STC to Eglinton/Yonge.
Can you quantify how the picture changes?
No, the logical thing to do would be the put BRT on a multitude of corridors and then after that see which ones should be upgraded to LRT. You could do BRT on Finch East, Sheppard East, and Ellesmere for the same cost as the SELRT. You tell me which is the better bargain, especially given that the SELRT was projected to, in 20 years, still see numbers that BRT could handle quite well.
If, after that, the ridership levels warrant LRT, then upgrading will be relatively easy, as the ROW and the street itself will have already been widened.
All of the above-mentioned corridors would have fantastic improvements if they got curbside BRT. For some of them, that may be all they need for the next 30 years.
sixrings
Senior Member
i am sceptical that the brt lanes you propose would stay beingbus only. instead wed have a war with car drivers who would eventually win the lanes. maybe i am being pestimistic but its hard to be optimistic with the current administration coupled with people who want to do anything it takes to keep driving. hopefully the ex mayor will bring sanity back to toronto. then maybe again being from ottawa he will propose brt first.
I think they would. The bus lanes on the DVP have stayed bus-only, and that's a city-owned road.
Besides, bus lanes, even queue jump lanes, are a benefit to motorists too. Very few things are more annoying when driving than being stuck behind a bus. Having dedicated bus lanes eliminates that.
But you are right, BRT doesn't have the same sense of permanence that LRT does. However, when you're dealing with very limited funds, putting more transit in more places seems like the better bet. And especially if you're dealing with suburban arterial roads, the difference in travel time between an LRT vehicle in-median and a BRT vehicle in a curbside lane is negligible. Yes there is the issue that at a certain ridership level LRT becomes more ecomonical than BRT, but the reality is a lot of the suburban corridors that it will be implemented on will be below 2,000 pphpd, with only a few being between 3,000 and 4,000 pphpd. If that is the case, then the operating costs are not that different, and the 1/3 difference in capital cost speaks for itself.
CDL.TO
Moderator
That line is 32km long and it carries as many people on a weekday as the 5.5km Sheppard line.
Good for Phoenix and all but... wow. That's comparable per-km ridership to the Wellesley bus.
accura407
Car is King
Eglinton should be built as planned, completely segregated, however completely underground is not necessary (especially between Leslie and Victoria Park)
While i would ideally like to see a sheppard subway, i know that it is not practical for today's tight funds. As a result, i think we should build 2 incomplete transit city lines and put them together...
Don Mills LRT from Don Mills station (underground connection into mezzanine) to Finch Ave.
Finch East LRT from Don Mills to Neilson Rd.
**Optional** Nielson extension from Finch Ave south to Tapscott (Malvern Town Centre)
What this would do is provide an immediate solution to transit in the east along a proven corridor with ample road ROW.
The only portion that would lose traffic lanes would be on Don Mills road from Sheppard to Finch (And even that is optional because they could do a viva hwy 7 style layout 6 + 2)
The reach of this route would be far greater than any sheppard subway and the route would be more useful east of Kennedy than the old Sheppard LRT...Because lets face it...an LRT through a purely suburban Sheppard Ave from Kennedy/Midland onwards is no different than putting an LRT on some random suburban arterial in the 905.
A sheppard subway is necessary for the future but today we cannot afford it. Yet the east needs transit relief now. This line would solve all these problems without sacrificing future transit plans for the long-term (Sheppard Subway to STC)
Along with this Finch East LRT from Don Mills station, widening Sheppard Ave from Victoria Park to Kennedy to 6 lanes (4 + 2 bus lanes) would provide immediate relief on Sheppard and continue to build ridership along the route.
The way Scarborough (and the east) is going, i think in the long term future we can justify having a rapid transit on Eglinton, Sheppard, and Finch (and Hwy 7 in Markham)
Also another project that should not be overlooked would be the eventual connection of Finch West LRT (from keele) to Finch East LRT (at don mills), but that also should only be based on ridership.
Rainforest
Senior Member
However, the Phoenix line passes through downtown, and that virtually guarantees its success. It is great that they found a way to build a surface ROW LRT line through their downtown. But their line cannot be directly compared to SELRT, as the latter would not have any major destinations on its own, nor a quick connection to downtown.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Actually, this is an interesting idea. But we need a new mayor first, before any surface transit project has a chance.