TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[sixrings]

The only reason I like I am sure many didnt like the sheppard LRT plan was because then the line would have a bus a subway and a LRT. IT would be the complete opposite of a one trip crosstown like bloor or eglinton. As a result I still believe after getting to Victoria Park the biggest concern is getting to downsview so there isnt a gap between the two lines, theres less transfering, and because its one way to get the trains towards the wilson yards. Concerning consumers I dont understand why the people who work in these buildings couldnt simply walk from Eglinton... Less stops = less money and as a result Id only suggest building bathurst when building west. We can always infill stations like consumers, willowdale, and senlac next. Also if we had presto we could simply charge a smalle additional fee to sheppard riders to try to offset the cost of the fact that its not running at capacity.

 

[Dan416]

Ok nfitz and kEiThZ, you both have a z in your user names, but you'll never agree on this. It's been debated ad nauseam.

That said, kEiThZ you know I'm 100% behind you on this.

 

[Filip]

I used to confuse the two thinking it might be a schizophrenic forumer.

 

[nfitz]

Oops, I've been rumbled!

 

[M II A II R II K]

Create a number of Liberty Villages along the route.

 

[EnviroTO]

Personally, I believe this is flawed. I fail to see how the line reaching STC, a far denser (and busier) node than anything else on Sheppard (save Yonge/Sheppard) would bring in less ridership than say hitting Warden. That's just blatantly ignoring the network effects of connecting major nodes and simplistically assuming that the further away you get from Yonge ridership will drop.

No, it reflects the reality that at Scarborough Centre they have a different way to get onto the rapid transit network. Most of the riders that get on at Don Mills head south at Yonge. Beyond Warden the number of people who fit into that primary ridership group drops off significantly because the Danforth line is more accessible to them and going to North York is going out of their way to get where they are going.

That's your opinion. It's a fact that the SELRT would preclude subway expansion for the rest of my natural life, at a minimum (and I'm a young-ish guy). And really if I'm wrong, can you explain why they picked Sheppard over Finch....where the buses are actually more crowded. What made Sheppard East a priority? Tell me.

The SELRT would only preclude a subway for the rest of your natural life if you are in agreement that the ridership can adequately be handled by surface LRT. They picked the initial lines based on creating a grid that reached across the city. With a transit line already existing on Sheppard between Yonge and Don Mills it makes little sense to duplicate that. Finch West was chosen because it is a continuous east-west street west of Yonge, Sheppard East was chosen because it reaches furthest east and doesn't require building between Don Mills and Yonge, and Eglinton was chosen because it is the middle of the city.

 

[kEiThZ]

Ok nfitz and kEiThZ, you both have a z in your user names, but you'll never agree on this. It's been debated ad nauseam.

And it keeps coming up ad naseuam by people who constantly keep spouting false and misleading information to justify their viewpoints.

I don't feel anything (but a few minutes of my time) is lost in at least providing some semblance of balance.

 

[kEiThZ]

No, it reflects the reality that at Scarborough Centre they have a different way to get onto the rapid transit network. Most of the riders that get on at Don Mills head south at Yonge. Beyond Warden the number of people who fit into that primary ridership group drops off significantly because the Danforth line is more accessible to them and going to North York is going out of their way to get where they are going.

This viewpoint assumes that everybody getting on at Yonge is due for a destination south of Bloor. They maybe heading south, but they may not all be heading South of Bloor. There's bound to be riders who would take Sheppard from STC because they are due for points closer to Sheppard (south or north).

In any event though, that's not the point of the Sheppard line. It's just a happy byproduct that it feeds Yonge. But that's not its main purpose. It's supposed to be a Cross-town. For example, how many York U students do you think would take the line if it ran from STC to Downsview? I am willing to bet 10k riders just from York U students in Scarborough per day at least. How many UTSC and Centennial college students in North York and Etobicoke would suddenly find their campuses significantly more accessible by transit if they didn't have to trundle down to Bloor or Eglinton to get across town?

The SELRT would only preclude a subway for the rest of your natural life if you are in agreement that the ridership can adequately be handled by surface LRT.

That was the TTC's contention. Not mine. They also assumed that a subway would only draw in an extra 1000 or so riders per hour. I find that particularly hard to believe. I'd love to see their assumptions and raw calculations on that one. Makes me wonder if any of the guys who worked that out have taken the Finch bus during rush hour.

They picked the initial lines based on creating a grid that reached across the city. With a transit line already existing on Sheppard between Yonge and Don Mills it makes little sense to duplicate that.

Really? Is that why Metrolinx had proposed that Finch continue on Finch East till Don Mills and then head south to Don Mills station before heading east on Sheppard? They wanted to avoid duplication?

They picked their grid with zero regard to where ridership is today. That much is clear, looking at which bus routes would be replaced. Not just that. They also picked routes without much thought as to how the corridors would develop. For all their fantasies about pedestrian-friendly streets, apparently none of these planners drove past Markham on Sheppard and saw the great backyards of Malvern which are available for re-zoning. Morningside's not that much better either. I won't speak to the rest but these two alone make me wonder about the merits of the plan. Network? More like lines on a map.

Finch West was chosen because it is a continuous east-west street west of Yonge, Sheppard East was chosen because it reaches furthest east and doesn't require building between Don Mills and Yonge, and Eglinton was chosen because it is the middle of the city.

Eglinton is correct. That's one of the ones I won't argue. But avoiding building between Don Mills and Yonge is clearly wrong. See above. Even more galling was the fact that they didn't plan a spur for STC. Skipped right by it. Apparently the zoo was a bigger priority.

 

[vz64]

The only reason I like I am sure many didnt like the sheppard LRT plan was because then the line would have a bus a subway and a LRT. IT would be the complete opposite of a one trip crosstown like bloor or eglinton. As a result I still believe after getting to Victoria Park the biggest concern is getting to downsview so there isnt a gap between the two lines, theres less transfering, and because its one way to get the trains towards the wilson yards. Concerning consumers I dont understand why the people who work in these buildings couldnt simply walk from Eglinton... Less stops = less money and as a result Id only suggest building bathurst when building west. We can always infill stations like consumers, willowdale, and senlac next. Also if we had presto we could simply charge a smalle additional fee to sheppard riders to try to offset the cost of the fact that its not running at capacity.

100% agreed; to save money I would connect Sheppard-Yonge with Downsview with no stops at all for now--not even at Bathurst--so that Sheppard would become a functional subway line.

 

[gweed123]

Eglinton is correct. That's one of the ones I won't argue. But avoiding building between Don Mills and Yonge is clearly wrong. See above. Even more galling was the fact that they didn't plan a spur for STC. Skipped right by it. Apparently the zoo was a bigger priority.

If the SELRT had a spur to STC, and a conversion of the Sheppard Subway to LRT, I wouldn't have been opposed to it. That would have made sense. Bypassing STC and creating a forced transfer at Don Mills were my 2 biggest beefs with the SELRT.

 

[nfitz]

If the SELRT had a spur to STC, and a conversion of the Sheppard Subway to LRT, I wouldn't have been opposed to it. That would have made sense. Bypassing STC and creating a forced transfer at Don Mills were my 2 biggest beefs with the SELRT.

Well now that it's going to be a bus instead, you don't have to transfer at Don Mills, and can take it all the way to Yonge. Hope your happy ...

 

[Paleo]

Sheppard usage will always remain low unless someone drops 100,000 or more jobs somewhere along the line. I would also expect peak ridership to be decimated the moment GO is properly integrated and service on RH and Stouffville line increased to frequent and all day.

Just acting as a residential collector and an pseudo-express service for a few thousand people won't produce the roaring success that some seem to think.

 

[gweed123]

Sheppard usage will always remain low unless someone drops 100,000 or more jobs somewhere along the line. I would also expect peak ridership to be decimated the moment GO is properly integrated and service on RH and Stouffville line increased to frequent and all day.

Just acting as a residential collector and an pseudo-express service for a few thousand people won't produce the roaring success that some seem to think.

+1. Especially the point about the GO lines.

 

[kEiThZ]

If the SELRT had a spur to STC, and a conversion of the Sheppard Subway to LRT, I wouldn't have been opposed to it. That would have made sense. Bypassing STC and creating a forced transfer at Don Mills were my 2 biggest beefs with the SELRT.

Absolutely. Pretty much my viewpoint too. I would have wanted to see a 2 stop extension and slow incremental expansion. But I can support this as an alternative. Perhaps the Eglinton LRT subway might help bring a change in mindset?

 

[kEiThZ]

Sheppard usage will always remain low unless someone drops 100,000 or more jobs somewhere along the line.

Low is relative. The Sheppard line may not be as successful as other TTC lines, but it's hardly the failure that some would wish it to be. That said, I do concur that there are priorities ahead of Sheppard East.

I would also expect peak ridership to be decimated the moment GO is properly integrated and service on RH and Stouffville line increased to frequent and all day.

How so? Riders may not go end-to-end anymore, but a lot of people might ride the subway to get to Agincourt. So I fail to see how peak ridership would be "decimated".

Just acting as a residential collector and an pseudo-express service for a few thousand people won't produce the roaring success that some seem to think.

Nor does it make the spectacular failure that some think it is.